Mr. KERWIN. The National War Labor Board. Mr. Taft and Mr. Manley were joint chairmen. They had their own organization. This money was appropriated to the Department of Labor and through the disbursing officer was allotted to the National War Labor Board.

Mr. GOMPERS. The President had allotted $70,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That gave you $370,000?

Mr. GOMPERS. As to this deficiency appropriation of $26,393.11, I might say that the auditors of the War Labor Board gave that amount as sufficient to pay their outstanding liabilities.

The CHAIRMAN What amount?

Mr. GOMPERS. $26,393.11. That was provided for, I think, in the third deficiency bill, 1919. I do not know what system of keeping accounts they had, and we had no means of getting at their accounts. On account of the peculiar organization of the War Labor Board, with representatives from the employers and representatives from the employees, each electing its own chairman, they felt that while the appropriations were given to the Secretary of Labor to administer, they were separate and distinct, and that the best efficiency would be secured by acting along that line. Consequently we had no control of their appropriation, and could not find out about it. In fact, they resented our trying to find out what they were doing. Consequently, when they finished their work, they came to us and said that they needed this amount of $26,393.11 to finish up their accounts and pay their outstanding liabilities. We had no way of going behind the record, and accepted those figures. Since that time transportation accounts, telegraph accounts, and othe accounts have been coming in at a rapid rate, until there is now $39,912 in excess of the amount estimated by them.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they still coming in?

Mr. GOMPERS. I think they are.

Mr. KERWIN. Transportation bills have come in to the department within the past two weeks.

Mr. GOMPERS. The railroads are very slow in presenting their bills. They do not present bills to us untll sometimes several months after the actual transaction; so that this is money that has been spent or obligated. We knew that they had no right to spend more money than they had, but we had no real control over that board. Those bills are on Mr. Kerwin's desk waiting to be paid, and, of course, he has no money in the conciliation fund to pay them. Otherwise, we would endeavor to pay them that way, because they are purely conciliation matters, That is a pure deficiency.

The CHAIRMAN. Why can you not bring your force down within the limits of your appropriation?

Mr. KERWIN. As fast as we find that we can eliminate commissioners who can be spared we do so. We dispensed with the services. of three men last week who had cleaned up the cases they were on, and there was nothing else immediately available for them, and five others have been discontinued temporarily within the past two months.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, you and I know that if we want to plow all of it, or rake it over with a fine-tooth comb, you can spend any amount you desire.

Mr. KERWIN. I know that. For the information of the committee, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put into the record a statement showing the growth of this service: From March, 1913, when it was first created, up to the end of that fiscal year we handled 33 cases; for the fiscal year 1915 42 cases; in the fiscal year 1916 we handled 227 cases; in the fiscal year 1917, 378 cases; in the fiscal year 1918 we had 1,217 cases; and in the last fiscal year, or 1919, we handled 1,780 cases. As the employers and employees become better acquainted with the effective services of this division, of course there is a vast increase in the calls made upon the service.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you have how much money left?

Mr. KERWIN. We have $74,269.10, or we had that on the 1st of December. All of our bills are not in for December, and the railroad bills are slow in coming in, so that we can not tell until six or seven weeks after the railroad charges are made what they will amount to. I am giving you, therefore, complete information only to December

1.

The CHAIRMAN. How many commissioners have you now employed?

Mr. KERWIN. About 28, and every one of them is busily engaged. Some of them have three or four cases on hand, and at times this prevents as prompt action as we should like to give to each case presented.

SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF FIRST INDUSTRIAL CONFERENCE.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking for a deficiency of $9,147.57 for the salaries and expenses of the First Industrial Conference called by the President of the United States.

Mr. KERWIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are all of those bills in?

Mr. GOMPERS. With the exception of the last item, or their miscellaneous and contingent expenses, and $200 has been added as a general fund or catch-all.

Mr. KERWIN. Two or three small bills came in since this was prepared.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have to pay rent to the Pan-American Union for the use of that building?

Mr. KERWIN. Yes, sir. It might not be considered exactly as rental.

Mr. REID. That is not actually rent.

The CHAIRMAN. Did not the Government contribute toward the construction of that building?

Mr. REID. The item is not properly described as rent. The PanAmerican Union was under certain unusual expenses because of our presence there, and their bill is based upon the actual cost of that conference to them. They measured the current used by the conference and charged them so much for current, and measured the heat.

The CHAIRMAN. They actually made no charge for the use of the building?

Mr. REID. No, sir; not in the ordinary sense of the term.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me see if I have this conference clearly in mind. Is this the conference that the President was instructed by resolution of Congress to invite?

Mr. GOMPERS. You have in mind the International Labor Conference. This is the one for which an estimate was made at the last session, and you stated at that time that we should bring in an itemized statement..

The CHAIRMAN. Under what authority was this conference called? Mr. GOMPERS. It was called by proclamation of the President. The CHAIRMAN. Under what authority was this proclamation issued?

Mr. GOMPERS. You have got mere there.

The CHAIRMAN. This is still a Government under a Constitution and laws, and we have a law that specifically provides-

That hereafter no part of the public moneys, or of any appropriation heretofore or hereafter made by Congress, shall be used for the payment of compensation or expenses of any commission, council, board, or other similar body, or any members thereof, or for expenses in connection with any work or the results of any work or action of any commission, council, board, or other similar body, unless the creation of the same shall be or shall have been authorized by law; nor shall there be employed by detail, hereafter or heretofore made, or otherwise personal services from any executive department or other Government establishment in connection with any such commission, council, board, or other similar body.

Under that statute I do not understand how the President had any power to call this industrial conference, and I do not understand how this committee has any power to report out an appropriation to pay the bills of such a conference.

Mr. GOMPERS. The only answer I can make is that the President called this body together by proclamation and authorized the Secretary of Labor to go ahead and make arrangements for their accommodation.

Mr. KERWIN. The appropriation was for $35,000 in the first instance. We appeared before the Senate committee because it was too late for action by the House, and the Senate committee reported it out favorably, and it was passed by the Senate, but stricken out in conference.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know what the action of this committee will be, but I want to say this, that I apprehend any one person could make the point of order against an appropriation of this kind, with that statute before them, and could prevent the whole appropriation. It seems to me that it would be the part of wisdom, when conferences are to be called, that there be some action by Congress first authorizing it.

Mr. KERWIN. In view of the fact that the war had not ended, would not the war powers of the President apply?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not believe that the emergency was of such a nature that it would override or wipe from the statute books a statute like that.

Mr. GOMPERS. The theory was that the President, by calling this conference, hoped to avoid such terrible things as the coal strike and steel strike.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no question whatever with regard to the motives, but I am talking about the law on the statute books that prevents that sort of thing, unless Congress shall first act.

Mr. GOMPERS. Up to the first of this fiscal year the President had a fund out of which he could pay for all those things, but now he has no such fund.

The CHAIRMAN. These lump-sum allotments spoil the best men. They go on using money from the lump sum, and when the cupboard is bare some of those things have to go hungry. I am referring to it now and call your attention to it, because in the future if any of these conferences or commissions not authorized by law are actually created or called, and the Labor Department applies for money to meet the expense, they may have some trouble in raising it.

Mr. GOMPERS. The Department of Labor was placed in a peculiar attitude there. I do not know that they were conversant with that law, but we were ordered to go ahead and do certain work and make arrangements for this work.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this the total amount?

Mr. GOMPERS. This is the total amount for the First Industrial Conference.

SECOND INDUSTRIAL CONFERENCE.

The CHAIRMAN. You have another estimate for the Second Industrial Conference?

Mr. GOMPERS. That is now in session.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking $25,000 for that?

Mr. GOMPERS. It is purely conjectural as to how much of that will be needed, but the commission requested the Secretary of Labor to put in an estimate for $25,000 for expenses. They have expended very little or no money. The Department of Labor has supplied them with some of their help, and with some of their supplies. The department has had some printing done for them in the hope that they would be recompensed, as our printing appropriation is very low. The request for this appropriation was signed by the entire commission, consisting of some 15 or 20 men.

Mr. BYRNES. How long has the conference been in session?

Mr. GOMPERS. They were in session for about three weeks, and then issued that preliminary statement and adjourned over the holidays so as to find out the sentiment of the country on that preliminary statement.

Mr. BYRNES. How much have they spent up to this time?
Mr. GOMPERS. I do not believe that they really know.

Mr. BYRNES. And there is no way of estimating how much it will be?

Mr. GOMPERS. No, sir. They ask for $25,000, but I would not be surprised if its expenses would not be more than $2,000 to date. Mr. BYRNES. What building are they holding that in?

Mr. GOMPERS. In Food Building No. 1.

Mr. BYRNES. Do they pay any rent?

Mr. GOMPERS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not go into the question of the details of this $25,000; you simply took the estimate from the men who were in charge of this second conference that it would cost, perhaps, $25,000?

Mr. GOMPERS. They just said that it would cost $25,000 and Mr. Kerwin and myself from our experience made up a detailed statement by dividing it as shown on this sheet.

The CHAIRMAN. Salaries, $13,000. What employees connected with that conference draw salaries?

Mr. GOMPERS. They have a young lady who is the working secretary. I do not know where they got her. I do not know whether she is a civil-service employee or not or where she came from. Prof. Seagar, of Columbia College of New York, is the executive secretary, and this lady is the actual working secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they pay him?

Mr. GOMPERS. I do not know.

Mr. BYRNES. Did they give you any itemized statement at all? MR. GOMPERS. No, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN. How did you make up this estimate of $13,000?
Mr. GOMPERS. Just from our talk with Prof. Seagar.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say that he was to be paid a salary?
Mr. GOMPERS. He did not say anything about himself.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he say anything about any other person who would be paid?

Mr. GOMPERS. No; no one. He did not say how long the conference would last.

Mr. BYRNES. Of course, they could not tell that. Could you tell who they now have employed?

Mr. GOMPERS. To my knowledge they have only one person now employed. The other employees are employees of the Department of Labor, detailed over there to act as messengers.

Mr. KERWIN. I imagine that they will have to have a great number of employees, because at the end of the first sessions they gave out a tentative plan for the establishment of an industrial court.

The CHAIRMAN. Before they establish an industrial court or things of that sort there will have to be some legislation. We are not going to have a Government of the United States right away that is going to exist simply by virtue of Executive orders and things of that kind. Mr. KERWIN. That is not contemplated.

The CHAIRMAN. It certainly is. There is no law for an industrial

court.

Mr. KERWIN. They are to report to the President. They are trying to find out what plan is the most feasible and best suited to the employers of the country and to the employees. They sent this program broadcast and published it in all the papers and invited

criticism.

Mr. BYRNES. And suggestions?

Mr. KERWIN. Yes, sir; and I understand they are coming in by the scores. It seems this was the way to get the best thought of the country.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe in something of that kind. I understood you to say that they were going to organize this industrial court.

Mr. KERWIN. No. They are trying to reach the best plan possible and report to the President; I assume it will then be submitted to Congress.

Mr. GOMPERS. There have been 12,000 copies of this preliminary report circulated among all the large manufacturers and employers of labor in the country.

Mr. BYRNES. In other words, they are taking a referendum of the employees and employers?

Mr. GOMPERS. Yes, sir. When they have reached their conclusions they will make recommendations to the President, who will no doubs transmit them to Congress.

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