COMMITTEES UNDER PRESIDENTIAL JURISDICTION INACTIVE FOR 2 YEARS OR MORE Mr. FORTWENGLER. Of the following 12 committees, nine are nonstatutory and therefore would come under the termination provision in section 8 of Executive Order No. 11007. Since these committees have been inactive for 2 or more years, it would appear to be difficult to justify their continued existence in writing as required by Executive Order 11007. In this particular case I will give the name of the committee, the date originated and the dates of the last meeting. I think this would amply cover the point we are trying to make. Mr. MONAGAN. The remaining information will be included. Advisory Committee on the Arts. Originated September 1958. Last meeting was held December 1964. ACFR Committee on Meat Packing. ACFR means Advisory Council on Federal Reports. Originated September 1950. No meetings have been held during the last 3 years. ACFR Committee on Railroad Reports to Federal Agencies. Date originated July 7, 1946. Date of last meeting-none held in last 5 years. ACFR Committee on Air Transportation. Date originated March 27, 1956. Date of last meeting-none held in last 3 years. ACFR Committee on Fats and Oils. Date originated January 1957. Date of last meeting-none in last 3 years. Mr. ROSENTHAL. When you say that there has been no meeting in the last 3 years, you are not excluding the possibility that there may not have been a meeting in the period preceding those 3 years also. Is that true? Mr. FORTWENGLER. Yes, sir. In some instances there may have been one meeting just prior to the last 3-year period, and in other instances, there may not have been any meetings in the last 4 or 5 years. ACFR Committee on Wholesale Trade. Originated April 29, 1958. Date of last meeting-none held in last 3 years. ACFR Committee on Retail Trade. Date originated July 1960. Date of last meeting-none held in last 3 years. Board of Advisors for the Federal Reformatory for Women at Alderson, W. Va. Date originated June 7, 1924. There have been no meetings held prior to 1964 of this committee. Mr. MONAGAN. Prior? Mr. FORTWENGLER. I should say, there have been no meetings since prior to 1964. Mr. MONAGAN. The last meeting was prior to 1964. Mr. FORTWENGLER. That is right. Business Leadership Advisory Council. Date originated August 10, 1964. Date of last meeting July 1967. Distinguished Civilian Service Awards Board. Date originated June 27, 1957. Board never appointed. They have not had any meeting at any time. National Advisory Committee on Older Persons. Date originated June 1965. Date of last meeting September 27, 1967. U.S. Territorial Expansion Memorial Commission. Date originated June 15, 1954. Date of last meeting February 3, 1967. As mentioned before, we would like the other information put in the record. Mr. MONAGAN. That was provided for. (The complete list follows:) Mr. FORTWENGLER. In response to an item on the questionnaire requesting "Dates of last two meetings," 51 committee reports out of the 1,519 received indicated their last meeting was held in 1967 or prior thereto; another 368 committees failed to report on the item. However, many of the 368 committees which failed to report dates of last meeting were originated during 1969, and may not have had time to get organized for holding meetings. In this connection we identified 34 Presidential committees which were initiated during the first 101/2 months of 1969. In conclusion, it would appear that Presidential committes may have an impact on the policies and operations of the Government, with little or no apparent supervision. Mr. MONAGAN. That is a very cautious conclusion you reached. I know we will have questions of you but one of our colleagues is here and I think, Mr. Fascell, that we would ask you to come up at this time. We would be happy to hear from you because we are aware of the work that you did and your committee did on this subject not too long ago and I am sure you will have some interesting comments and suggestions. Mr. Fortwengler, will you please stay and then we will come back to you? Mr. FORTWENGLER. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF HON. DANTE B. FASCELL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA Mr. FASCELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. I am delighted to have this opportunity to be here before you on this subject. I have a prepared statement which my colleague from New York suggests is much too long, so I am going to introduce it in the record and if I may, I would like to proceed extemporaneously. Mr. MONAGAN. I don't know that I would agree with that recommendation about your report. Our colleague is sometimes a littleMr. FASCELL. He is enthusiastic. Mr. MONAGAN (continuing). Overaggressive on some points. Mr. FASCELL. I would like to submit it for the record. Then I will proceed. Mr. MONAGAN. It may be received for the record, but don't skimp in the material in it because we want to Mr. FASCELL. With that caveat, I will cover it all. Mr. MONAGAN. I am sure you can present it more graphically without reading it. Mr. FASCELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was very interested in the report Mr. Fortwengler presented to the committee on his study and conclusions. It seems obvious that advisory committees go on and on, regardless of changes in Government and regardless of Congress. There are undoubtedly more now than we have ever had. We reached the same conclusion years ago. At that time, we thought there were something like 17 or 1,800. We probably have more now than ever before and know less about them than we did before. They are obviously not a new instrumentality of the Government. They can be evidently useful. At first blush, one might think there is not much sex in this but you and I know the more you get into the question of advisory committees, the sexier it gets. I would like to talk about some of the more exciting aspects of advisory committees, although I think it is pretty exciting when you have already heard that in many cases they don't meet; and have no supervision; or guidelines and we don't know how much they cost; and we are not sure who advises who about what. As you pointed out, Mr. Chairman, another subcommittee went into this a good many years ago; to take a look at the advisory committees; to see what kind of advice was being given; and how they were being operated. That subcommittee also conducted a survey, and I think for historical purposes if no other reason, a copy of that questionnaire ought to be in the record so that it may be compared. I have one, so I would like to submit it for the record. Mr. MONAGAN. It may be placed in the record at this time without objection. (The questionnaire referred to follows:) [Committee Print] INDEPENDENT AGENCIES-ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION QUESTIONNAIRE SUBMITTED TO THE ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION BY EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS COMMITTEE NOVEMBER 21, 1955. DEAR MR. Please furnish this committee by January 1, 1956, the following information with regard to all committees created by and/or advising your department and any of its constituent parts since January 1, 1953. if there is serving on such committee any person other than a regular, full-time Federal employee compensated on an annual basis: 1. Name of committee and its functions and duties. 2. Date committee was created. 3. Membership of committee (give names of individuals). 4. Statutory authority for creation of committee. 5. Copy of document creating committee and/or authorizing its functions and activities. Also copy of all amending documents to date. 6. By whom are members of committee appointed and for what terms of office? 7. With whom does the committee advise and consult? 8. In what manner and in what amounts are members of this committee compensated and/or reimbursed for expenses? Please cite authority. 9. How often does the committee meet? Where does it meet? 10. Who has authority to convene the committee? 11. Who appoints the chairman, secretary, or other officers of the committee? 12. Who is responsible for keeping minutes of the committee's meetings? 13. Where are these minutes kept on file? 14. Are the minutes of meetings available for public inspection? If not, cite statutory authority for restricting access to such minutes. 15. What publicity is given the meetings of the committee and who is responsible for giving out such publicity? 16. Give dates and places of committee meetings since January 1, 1953. 17. Who prepares agenda for committee meetings? 18. Who has authority to place items on committee agendas? 19. Does the committee communicate recommendations or other advice to your department in written form? Any other form? Describe. 20. Does the committee have any staff, part time, or full time? Describe staff, giving names, full-time affiliation, and salary, if any, received from the Federal Government or other sources. 21. Give background, business connections, and qualifications including nonFederal affiliations of members of committee and its staff. This applies only to organizational connections from which income is derived and/or which involve holding a position as officer or trustee of a non-Federal organization concerned with a business or industry. 22. List reports made by committee since January 1, 1953, other than committee minutes. Sincerely yours, Mr. FASCELL. We obtained extensive data which was the basis for a bill which I introduced. The bill set up standards for advisory committees. We had discovered as your testimony this morning has indicated that the advisory committees were operating absolutely any way they wanted to with no uniform standards. We recommended that there should be statutory authority for the employment of such committees. Second, that they have an agenda; and that the agenda should be initiated and formulated by the interested Government department. We found that advisory committees were self-perpetuating; the chairman was not a Government employee; they had no agenda; and they would decide what they would do and when they were going to do it with seemingly little coordination with the Government department. If somebody in the department tried to tell them something, maybe they wouldn't listen. So we recommended that their meetings shall be at the call of, and under the chairmanship of a full-time Government official for that reason. We recommended that full and complete minutes of such meetings shall be kept. So committees didn't want to keep minutes of the meetings. They didn't want anybody to know what they were advising or whether there were dissenting views. Not only that, but they didn't want anybody to find out what it was they advised on. They took the position that this was-they took two different positions. One was that their action was executive and therefore classified within the document of executive privilege; and the other was that they weren't a Government agency and therefore their action was not subject to public scrutiny. Neither position would make advisory committee actions subject to public, press, or congressional scrutiny, so that is the reason we wrote in the law that commitees had to have minutes and the minutes had to be available, and the functions of the committee would be purely advisory, and that it would make no operational decisions. We passed the bill in the House and lost it in the Senate. I have a copy of the original bill and the passed bill, by the way, and for historical reasons perhaps we should put them in the record. Mr. MONAGAN. They may be placed in the record at this time. (The documents referred to follow :) [H.R. 3378, 85th Cong., 1st sess.] A BILL To amend section 15 of the Administrative Expense Act of 1946, and for other purposes Whereas the Congress is aware of an increasing tendency among Government departments and agencies to utilize the services of experts and consultants as advisory committees or other consultative groups; and Whereas it is recognized that advisory committees can serve as an aid to intelligent and informed consideration of various matters in the administration of Government affairs; and Whereas it is equally well recognized that protection of the public interest requires that the activities of such committees and groups be made subject to certain uniform requirements as a minimum safeguard against the use of any such group to influence public policy for the benefit of private interests: Now, therefore, Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 15 of the Administrative Expense Act of 1946 (5 U.S.C. 55a), is amended by adding after the period which follows the word "Statutes" the following: "Provided, That the activities and functions of any group of experts or consultants, procured under authority of this or any other law, to serve as an advisory committee or other advisory panel or group, shall be subject to the following minimum standards: "(1) There shall be statutory authority for the employment of such committees or there shall be an administrative finding that it is necessary to utilize such committees to perform certain statutory duties. "(2) The agenda for such committees and their meetings shall be initiated and formulated by the Government. "(3) Their meetings shall be at the call of and under the chairmanship of full-time Government officials. "(4) Full and complete minutes of each such meeting shall be kept. "(5) The functions of such committees shall be purely advisory and any determinations of action shall be made solely by Government representatives: Provided further, That the President of the United States is hereby authorized to issue such regulations, not inconsistent with the foregoing standards or any other provisions of law, as he may deem necessary for effective control of the |