Commander HOOVER. Yes. The Coast Guard will admit all that, I believe.

Senator ODDIE. Now, the question comes up as to how much notice these buoys were to the Coast Guard ship Paulding of the likelihood of submerged submarine maneuvers along that trial course, which had been used by submarines previously, as brought out in the record this morning. It seems to me that we should have a representative of the Coast Guard here to answer certain questions that we can put to him.

Senator GERRY. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. Whom do you want to call?

Senator ODDIE. I think it would be well to take that up with the officials of the Treasury Department and request the Secretary of the Treasury to detail some one to appear before our committee and submit to questions. We should inquire as to whether adequate lookout was maintained on the Paulding, and whether those whose duty it was to keep the lookout did their duty properly.

Senator GERRY. They can undoubtedly send us somebody who is conversant with the facts as to where the lookouts were.

Senator ODDIE. And whether the ship was properly manned, and whether due diligence was observed.

Another thing, the question of the Coast Guard regulations ought to be gone into more in detail, and the question of maneuvering of ships.

Senator GERRY. I presume that the witness that will appear here from the Coast Guard will be able to furnish that.

Senator ODDIE. Then we will want to ask additional questions of the representatives of the Navy later.

Senator GERRY. The Coast Guard now operates a large number of vessels, does it not, along the coast, in order to look after the patrolling of it?

Commander HOOVER. Yes.

Senator GERRY. It has a very considerable number of these operating all the time, has it not? Of course, I can get this information from the Coast Guard.

Commander HOOVER. I think they have about 25 destroyers, and undoubtedly many other craft.

Senator GERRY. That would be about 20 on the Atlantic coast? Lieutenant Commander DUNBAR. I think all the destroyers are on the Atlantic coast. There are about 15 out of Boston alone. Senator GERRY. Where did they get these vessels?

Commander HOOVER. They were gotten from the Navy.

Senator GERRY. You are familiar with them. What is their cruising speed, 20 knots?

Commander HOOVER. Twenty knots is an average cruising speed for short distances. In making a long cruise, such as we frequently make in the Navy, the speed would be down around 12 knots. Senator GERRY. In order to conserve your fuel?

Commander HOOVER. Yes.

Senator GERRY. But when operating along the coast?

Commander HOOVER. The Coast Guard officers testified in the naval court that 18 knots was a very usual speed.

Senator GERRY. And they also testified that the Paulding was proceeding at 18 knots

Commander HOOVER. Yes.

Senator GERRY (continuing). When she first sighted the submarine.

Commander HOOVER. Yes.

Senator GERRY. Does not the operation of these large numbers of Coast Guard destroyers make it more than ever important that the Coast Guard should have certain information as to where submarines are operating, if near the coast?

Commander HOOVER. We can not state as to that. Every commanding officer of a ship should obtain as much information as he can about other shipping.

Senator GERRY. În other words, with these vessels operating at high speed along the coast, and with the experience in the past that we have had with submarine collisions on account of their low visibility, let alone the question of submerging, would not it be a safeguard if the Coast Guard had information as to the probable whereabouts of submarines?

Commander HOOVER. I should think it would help, undoubtedly. Senator GERRY. And also in case of any difficulty that submarines might have, if they had that knowledge they would be much more effective as rescuing ships or in aiding?

Commander HOOVER. Certainly. This information would help them to a certain extent, I would think.

Senator GERRY. And would that information interfere at a time like this with any naval policy?

Commander HOOVER. I can not state as to that, but my personal idea would be that the only inconvenience that it would bring about would be the work entailed in getting out the instructions every day to all the ships.

Senator GERRY. That would be broadcasted?

Commander HOOVER. That in turn is another complication as regards the methods of doing these things. There is no doubt in the world it can be done if it is desired to do it. They send out lots of other information.

Senator ODDIE. Of your own knowledge, are there any Coast Guard ships used in the prohibition enforcement unit that do not carry radio?

Commander HoOVER. Not to my knowledge.

Senator ODDIE. Do they have ships, small vessels, that do not carry radio, besides the destroyers?

Commander HOOVER. You mean Coast Guard ships?

Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Commander HOOVER. I can not say as to that. I rather think that all Coast Guard vessels are well equipped with radio, except possibly launches and speedboats.

Senator GERRY. Are those destroyers that were turned over to the Coast Guard, with which you are familiar as former naval vessels, difficult to handle? Do they stop quickly?

Commander HOOVER. They are about the same as the destroyers that we have in the service, I should say.

Senator GERRY. Are they hard to stop if going fast?

Commander HOOVER. Not particularly so.

Senator GERRY. Not more than any other vessel?
Commander HOOVER. No.

Senator ODDIE. As a matter of fact, with their high power, is it not possible to stop them quicker than other vessels of their size can be stopped?

Commander HOOVER. It is, on account of their large power, provided they have all their boilers in use and are quick to operate the machinery in the engine room when the signal is given.

Senator GERRY. How many boilers do they carry?
Commander HOOVER. Four.

Senator GERRY. Are they hard to turn, being so long?

Commander HOOVER. They, of course, do not turn the way a shorter and wider vessel would.

Senator GERRY. But their power is so great that you partly overcome that, do you not?

Commander HOOVER. Somewhat, yes.

Senator GERRY. They are rather hard to turn, though?

Commander HOOVER. They are not considered to be defective in this regard, nor would I say they are the quickest vessels to turn that we have.

Senator ODDIE. They have two propellers?

Commander HOOVER. The Paulding has three propellers.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know whether the Coast Guard differentiates between the prohibition service and the life-saving service in assigning different ships to the various services, or whether all of their ships are intended for both of the services?

Commander HOOVER. I can not say, but I think all their vessels do both duties.

(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock m., the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, May 11, 1928, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

INVESTIGATION OF SINKING OF THE SUBMARINE "S-4"

FRIDAY, MAY 11, 1928

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to the call of the chairman, at 10 o'clock a. m., in the room of the Committee on the Territories in the Capitol, Senator Tasker L. Oddie presiding.

Present: Senators Oddie (chairman) and Gerry.

Present also: Commander J. H. Hoover, United States Navy, and Lieut. Commander P. H. Dunbar, United States Navy.

STATEMENT OF ADMIRAL CHARLES F. HUGHES, CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS

Senator ODDIE. The committee will come to order. Senator Steiwer is attending another meeting and has said we should go ahead without him, as he will study the record of the hearings later. Admiral Hughes, we have requested you to testify in this case because you have had many years of active service in the Navy and are thoroughly familiar with the problems relating to navigation, ships, etc. It goes without saying that you can give us valuable information on the problems before us.

Senator Gerry has some questions along the line of some testimony that was given yesterday at the hearing.

Senator GERRY. Admiral, the committee was interested in getting the naval policy in regard to the operation of submarines, what the department's policy was in regard to their submerging, and the safeguards that were taken to prevent collisions.

Admiral HUGHES. The submarines operate from certain bases and with the fleet. They may submerge anywhere where the water is of sufficient depth, generally not operating in well-defined lines of traffic.

Senator GERRY. As I understand from the testimony yesterday, the submarine operates with the fleet at certain times when you are carrying out maneuvers, and then at other times the submarines operate from certain bases on the coast?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes.

Senator GERRY. When they are operating with the fleet in maneuvers, they naturally have to do submerging, in order to carry out your maneuvers?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. The point I was trying to get at is, when they are not operating with the fleet but are based on some land base and are

simply operating along the coast, were any further precautions taken in regard to submerging, or was it the policy of the department to leave the question of submerging entirely with the officer in command of a submarine?

Admiral HUGHES. Entirely with the officer in command of a submarine, except at certain times specific tests were laid out; but generally the time and the place was left to his discretion, except on trials for speed, which must be done on a measured trial course.

Senator GERRY. Under those circumstances, then, the commanding officer of the base from which the submarine is operating would give the instructions?

Admiral HUGHES. The commanding officer that had charge of that unit. The submarines that operate with the fleet, when they are away from the main part of the fleet, still operate from the tender that goes with them in the fleet.

Senator GERRY. Yes; but what I really had in mind was, when they were separated from the fleet and were operating from a shore base.

Admiral HUGHES. The question that I was trying to bring upthose generally operate with the fleet, are always a part of the fleet, and they operate under the same commanding officer from the base on a tender-they do not base at a shore station.

Senator GERRY. I see. Then, in other words, these new submarines are so large that they are cruising submarines, and you consider them a part of the fleet unit?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. And therefore the orders come to them from the fleet?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. Therefore the submarines on the Atlantic coast would be operated from the Atlantic fleet?

Admiral HUGHES. From what is known as the control force.
Senator GERRY. From the control force?

Admiral HUGHES. Might I explain about that so as to get it clear?
Senator GERRY. I wish you would.

Admiral HUGHES. The way our submarines are divided is this: The shore based submarines base at New London, so that they are under the fleet commander, yet they are shore based at New London for training quarters for the officers and men.

There is another shore base at Coco Solo, which is at the eastern end of the Panama Canal. They also are part of the fleet, but they operate from a shore base except when with the fleet.

The third one is at Hawaii. There they operate from a base, but they are still under the command of the submarine commander of the Battle Fleet.

The rest of the submarines operate from floating bases which proceed from place to place with the fleet or often as a separate unit. For instance, the submarines that belong to the control force have recently returned to New London from operating in the vicinity of Panama all winter, mostly by themselves, so that there are certain ones that operate from shore bases and certain ones that operate from floating bases, but they are all under the fleet.