Mr. SPRAGUE. It is that the Budget people do not know, and do not appreciate, what is meant by the expenditure of money in certain ways. They are simply experts in bookkeeping, as you put it. Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Doctor HUTCHISON. A million dollars looks large to them, and at other times a hundred dollars looks small to them.

Senator ODDIE. I will give you one illustration of how it works. Last year the Budget refused a few thousand dollars to the Bureau of Mines to carry on investigations in what is called the "falls-inroof" in coal mines. Accidents of this kind are responsible for the loss of over 1,200 lives every year, besides thousands of casualties. This last year the Bureau of Mines scraped together a few hundred dollars, and carried on an intensive campaign with the State of West Virginia for three months in investigating these accidents and their causes. The result of that intensive work for three months was in reducing the number of deaths from 75 to 35 or 50 per cent, and increasing the production of coal by a million and a half tons; and that was done on just a few hundred dollars.

That same policy could be carried on with the Navy. If the Navy Department were allowed more money for scientific investigational work such as you suggest it would result in the savings of lives and the increasing of efficiency to a very large extent.

Doctor HUTCHISON. Do you remember "Uncle Ben" Tillman, chairman of the Senate committee? He had the habit, whenever he had anything of importance to consider, of calling me down here and talking it over with me. On one occasion there was up the construction of submarine boats, and he said: "Do you mean to tell me that there is $300,000 worth of stuff in one of those boats?"

I said: "Uncle Ben, give them $400,000. They do not have an even break; you always cut them down so low that you do not give the manufacturers enough latitude to build a boat worth while. Add a hundred thousand dollars instead of taking off anything." He said: "I'll do it!" and he put it through.

Those who have had service in submarines know what the service is up against. You can not even buy a match unless you get three or four lines of red tape first. It is a terrible thing. A few accidents of this kind ought to bring the matter before the American people. It comes home pretty close when it pulls on your individual family. It is like railroad work and the introduction of what is called the automatic train control. Everyone is very reluctant to go ahead with it until some official has his specially constructed private car on the rear of the train run into, and he perhaps loses his life. Then on that particular road it is installed. But in this disaster it seems to me it was brought home in so many poignant ways that it ought to be a lesson to the Budget committee, or anyone.

The trouble is they did not strike quickly enough after the accident. There was a wonderful lot of advertising if you want to use that term-in the newspaper publicity that was given the work accompanying the rescue of that boat and the way it lay there on the bottom of the bay for a long time, whereas if there had been salvage ships available for the purpose probably you could have gotten it up much quicker.

Mr. SPRAGUE. The trouble has been to get the appropriation from the Budget to provide for salvage equipment.

Doctor HUTCHISON. You could have put through five million or ten million dollars worth of salvage equipment right then at that time; it would have gone through like a streak of greased lightning right then; but not three or six months afterwards.

Senator ODDIE. One trouble we have is the lack of engineering talent and advice in Congress and in certain branches of our Government. We need more of it.

Mr. SPRAGUE. I quite agree with you, Senator. I think there are too many people who know nothing about engineering or science.

Senator ODDIE. My comments may seem to be somewhat far afield in this investigation, but I want you gentlemen to know some of the difficulties that the various branches of our Government have to contend with; and I hope that your organization will study this matter and possibly be in a position to put in a word here and there of wholesome advice where it can do some good and which I hope will result in helping us get more support from the Budget for technical and scientific investigational work in various branches of our Government.

Doctor HUTCHISON. I do not think there is any doubt whatever but what every member of the board will be delighted to serve in a consulting capacity to both the House and the Senate at any time.

Mr. SPRAGUE. I would be very glad to appear before any committee and do anything I can to assist; and I know the other members of the board would, too. They are all men who are connected with enterprises which require enormous expenditures to arrive at solutions. They could not live if they did not.

Senator ODDIE. You gentlemen are connected with the business organizations which believe in spending an adequate amount of money for such work.

Doctor HUTCHISON. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. As a means of saving lives and preventing losses and increasing our industrial efficiency.

Doctor HUTCHISON. They are not connected with politics and do not have to cut down taxes in anticipation of elections, and things of that kind. I think if we quit cutting down taxes and started spending some of that money toward the evolution of labor-saving and safety-giving features on all of our military and other departments, it would be money well invested.

Senator ODDIE. Yes. I am glad to hear that statement. If there is nothing further we will recess until tomorrow morning at 10.30. I thank you gentlemen very much for the assistance you have given this committee.

(Thereupon, at 3.40 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to 10.30 o'clock a. m. to-morrow, Friday, March 25, 1928.)

INVESTIGATION OF SINKING OF THE SUBMARINE "S-4"

FRIDAY, MAY 25, 1928

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in the room of the committee in the Capitol, Senator Tasker L. Oddie presiding.

Present: Senators Oddie (chairman) and Gerry.

STATEMENT OF ELMER A. SPERRY, A MEMBER OF THE NAVAL CONSULTING BOARD

Mr. SPERRY. My name is Elmer A. Sperry. I reside in the city of New York. I am an engineer by profession; got my inspiration at Cornell, and at present I am on the boards of several industrial organizations, being chairman of the board of the Sperry Gyroscope Co. That company has been favored by orders from the United States Navy for gyrocompasses for a great many years. Its product has gone into a number of thousand compasses. Between 350 and

400 have been supplied to the United States Navy.

Personally, I have been active in a number of lines of engineering, have received honorary degrees from Northwestern University as doctor of science, from Stevens Institute and Lehigh University as doctor of engineering, am a member of the National Academy of Sciences, and chairman of the National Research Council, engineering division, and have received a number of medals of award.

My experience in the last 20 years has drawn me quite close to the Navy and its activities, and latterly these activities have thrown me in quite close contact with practically all of the navies of the world, except those of Germany and Austria.

Senator ODDIE. Will you give your connection with the Naval Consulting Board?

Mr. SPERRY. In 1915 I was one of the original members selected by the naval authorities to form the Naval Consulting Board. I was chairman of three committees, namely, aeronautics mines, and torpedoes, and aids to navigation. Since the war we have offered our resignation as each succeeding Secretary of the Navy has come into office. The resignation has been refused, and we are still looked upon as an active organization, although our activities are limited. Senator ODDIE. As a board have you offered your services?

Mr. SPERRY. As a board we have offered our resignation as each Secretary came into office, and we were told that we were looked upon as minutemen, that it would require an act of Congress to organize another one, and would we kindly withdraw our resignation,

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and continue to constitute ourselves as the Naval Consulting Board for such activities as we might be called upon to perform.

Senator ODDIE. Have you been consulted in any way recently by the Navy?

Mr. SPERRY. Indirectly we are consulted in connection with one of the great activities that the Naval Consulting Board during war time was enabled to establish, namely, the Navy's great research laboratory over at Bellview. I think I was on the committee to select that property, and I helped to pass on the plans and to get the organization. I was the only member of the Naval Consulting Board who was down here at the time it was dedicated. We have always looked upon that as one of our proud achievements, although we were extremely active, holding sessions almost daily during the war.

Senator GERRY. When did you get that plan put through?

Mr. SPERRY. It was proposed first by a committee headed by Mr. Edison, and I think that it was at least a year after the proposition was originally made before it was acted upon favorably by Congress and appropriation made.

Senator GERRY. When was that?

Mr. SPERRY. My memory for dates is not very good.

Captain THELEEN. In 1916 Congress appropriated $1,000,000 for the establishment of what was called originally the Naval Experimental and Research Laboratory. After about a year they appropriated an additional $500,000.

Those two acts provided the funds for establishing the laboratory. They started construction, I believe, soon after. It took some time to complete it.

Mr. SPERRY. It is dignified and vital.

Captain THELEEN. After the buildings were put up, they had to get a lot of equipment, and after the laboratory was about to function Congress failed to appropriate the money that was asked for for the operation of that laboratory, so that for about a year the laboratory was almost dormant. The first appropriation for the operation of the laboratory was made in January, 1923.

Senator GERRY. How long has the laboratory been operating now? Captain THELEEN. About five years.

Senator GERRY. Have you gone there frequently, Mr. Sperry, or been in touch with what they were doing?

Mr. SPERRY. Oh, yes; every year we get quite a detailed report, and I have been down there, I think, about four times.

Senator GERRY. In the five years?

Mr. SPERRY. Yes; something like that; but the organization is complete, it is functioning splendidly, and we are called upon sometimes for expert suggestion in some particular field in which we are supposed to have had experience.

Senator GERRY. How often does your consulting board meet?
Mr. SPERRY. We always meet once a year.

Senator GERRY. Not oftener than that?

Mr. SPERRY. Not unless we are called upon for some special thing. No; we are practically dormant.

Senator GERRY. The Secretary of the Navy, then, has not called you together for years except for your annual meetings?

Mr. SPERRY. That is about a correct statement of it, I think.

Senator GERRY. How long does your annual meeting take? How long does it take; do you go over things in general, or what?

Mr. SPERRY. We have selected November 11, Armistice Day, for the annual meeting. The meeting extends into the evening, with a dinner, and we always invite the head of the laboratory, and he brings quite an elaborate and satisfactory report. That is, it is very complete in detail and covers all the various activities in which the Naval Consulting Board especially are interested.

You understand that on the Naval Consulting Board we have probably the greatest research engineer that lives to-day in the person of Doctor Whitney, who for years has headed up the great research activities of the General Electric Co. He is chairman of the laboratory committee, and we have him review the various naval officers in charge as they come along. There have been two or three heads, you know. The present head is here to-day-Captain Theleen. We always expect Doctor Whitney to put them through quite a course of questioning as to just how the various departments are progressing, and if there is anything we can do, we of course stand ready to do it, and are glad to be called upon.

Senator GERRY. Doctor Whitney does this once a year?

Mr. SPERRY. Yes. Of course he is an extremely busy man; and we are all like Charlie Schwab, we were "dollar-a-year men, and never received the dollar."

Senator GERRY. Yes. What I had in mind was that the department has not been utilizing all this ability which they have at their command, and which would be quite willing to cooperate with them? Mr. SPERRY. We would be quite willing. We are, however, modest as to our ability.

Senator GERRY. Exactly; you are not coming to the department; but the department ought to come to you.

Mr. SPERRY. There are some of our members who talk that way; but I think we feel the great honor of being members of that body. and we stand as minutemen, as the Secretary told us, ready to serve.

Senator GERRY. Do you know, Mr. Sperry, if the Secretary or the department has consulted your board about submarine devices, or improvements that could be made in safety devices on submarines? Mr. SPERRY. During the term of the war, when we were extremely active, we had one or two committees who considered that phase. Senator GERRY. I mean since the war?

Mr. SPERRY. Not that I can remember; but, of course, my dear Senator, my memory may slip.

Senator GERRY. Apparently, from the testimony, the department has not been active since the war in trying to get outside devices; and that is what I am trying to find out, because it seems to me a great pity that all the talent and ability that there is in this country, and all you patriotic men who would be only too glad to make suggestions to the department, are not utilized to the full extent that you might be.

Mr. SPERRY. Of course, on the other hand, we have men of very great ability in the Navy.

Senator GERRY. Undoubtedly; but on a proposition such as this, the more advice you have the better; and of course there is always, from my experience in Congress, apt to be an attitude on the part