Senator ODDIE. Is it not known to navigators that that is an obsolete practice, which was in use when submarines were very much smaller than they are to-day, and with a much shorter radius of action?

Admiral BILLARD. My knowledge of the fact that it was obsolete was first arrived at by the reading of it in the naval court of inquiry. Let me ask, is there any other officer here who was cognizant of the fact that it was no longer being done?

Captain GAMBLE. I never heard of it until in this case.
Captain WHEELER. I did not know it.

Admiral BILLARD. These officers who are here have been 25 or 30 years at sea. Captain Wheeler was three years at Provincetown, I believe.

Captain WHEELER. I spent three years on that station, from 1921 to 1923, in Provincetown, and previous to this, I had no knowledge that I might encounter a submarine there.

Senator ODDIE. I asked a question a little while ago regarding additional duties for the lookout on the Paulding, did you answer that fully?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not know. Senator, but I will try to answer it now, if I may repeat. The duties of those people on the bridge of the Paulding were primarily and fundamentally as lookouts, and they had no other duties that would detract in any applicable way from that primary function.

Senator ODDIE. Have you given the positions of the various officers on the bridge or on the ship at that time? For instance, there was the commanding officer, the officer of the deck, the junior officer and the quartermaster?

Admiral BILLARD. The captain of the vessel was on the bridge and had stepped a few feet into the pilot house to look at the chart just before the accident occurred. The commissioned officer of the deck

Captain GAMBLE. He was on the left side of the bridge.

Admiral BILLARD. The commissioned officer was on the left side of the bridge. The junior officer was where?

He

Captain GAMBLE. He was right behind the wheelsman; he was on the left side of the bridge and later in the right side I am sure. was behind the binnacle, looking ahead at the moment of collision. Senator ODDIE. Had any special instructions or warning been given to any of the officers regarding the possibility of the presence of submarines?

Admiral BILLARD. Not to my knowledge, sir, at all. I may suggest that this Coast Guard station, right close to where the accident happened, had no official notification, and knew of the submarine only by observation.

Senator ODDIE. Is there any testimony in the record showing that these Coast Guard officers on shore had notice or knew of any recent submarine tests being made in that vicinity?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not recall it in the record. Obviously, these men at that station would know what was going on, but had never been officially advised of that fact.

Senator ODDIE. Admiral, do you think that a careful navigating officer would have suspected the possibility of submarines operating in that vicinity?

Admiral BILLARD. The careful navigating officer, Senator, does not know where he will find submarines operating. He will see them, for example, operating out of New London. To the best of my understanding, he is liable to see them anywhere in the seven seas, practically.

Senator ODDIE. He would be more liable to see them in the vicinity of a measured trial course used by the Navy and marked by the Navy, would he not?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not know whether he would or not, in view of the facts. The testimony shows that the submarines operated about Provincetown once in four and a half months, on the average. I came from New London yesterday, and saw some myself. I saw on that one day two submarines moving in and out of New London. So that I would not say that he would expect a submarine in Provincetown when one operates there every four and a half months, on the -average, any more than he would at New London, where there is no measured mile and no warning, but where submarines are operating -almost every day.

Senator ODDIE. It is a known fact that there are a large number of submarines in the Navy?

Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly.

Senator ODDIE. And that they must keep in constant practice? Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly, Senator.

Senator ODDIE. And to do that, they must submerge very frequently?

Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly. And I gather-but it is not for me to say that the whole doctrine of the Navy submarine service is that in view of this necessity, the submarine must look after herself with respect to surface craft.

Senator ODDIE. What can you tell us about any change in the course of the Paulding before the accident?

Admiral BILLARD. To the best of my recollection, the testimony shows that the Paulding was proceeding along, following exactly the precepts of the Coast Pilot, they were about to change their course to the left, that the order was given, "Five degrees left rudder," and that before the ship's head had swung at all, the object rose up under their bow, and they swung right. I think I am correct in saying that the testimony clearly shows that the bow of the Paulding did not actually swing clearly to the left.

Incidentally, in that connection, the fact would seem to be established that the submarine had the Paulding on its starboard bow. Under the international rule of the sea, of course, that places the responsibility as between the ships on the submarine.

Senator ODDIE. Was the Paulding being navigated on the Pilot Chart at the time of the collision or on the regular navigation chart? Admiral BILLARD. It was being navigated by this chart, the Coast and Geodetic Survey Chart.

Senator ODDIE. Was the Pilot Chart considered?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not believe I know what you mean by the "Pilot Chart."

Captain WHEELER. Concerning the weather, etc.

Admiral BILLARD. You mean the Pilot Chart carrying the weather, and so on?

Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Admiral BILLARD. I could not answer that. I do not know any particular occasion they would have to note it, except that they are thoroughly familiar with that submarine warning flag that is printed on all the Pilot Charts.

Senator ODDIE. Does the Coast Guard service use the Pilot Chart for other purposes than as a weather and current chart?

Admiral BILLARD. Yes; it uses that chart the same as all ships.

Senator ODDIE. Does the notation on the Pilot Chart referring to the submarine warning flag state that this flag "will" be hoisted when submarines are operating on recognized and charted trial courses? •

Admiral BILLARD. It suggests it; and if that was not the impression that mariners were supposed to receive, there would be absolutely no sense in putting it on the chart. I think the committee are probably aware of the fact that the Navy Signal Manual for 1920, Navy Department, page 125, has this same legend about the submarine warning flag. Here is the chart, which of course you gentlemen have seen [indicating]. There is the submarine warning flag, and there is the legend [indicating]. If that were not intended for the guidance of mariners, it would be folly to print it on the chart, which has been done for at least 10 years.

Captain GAMBLE. Since 1907, I think.

Senator ODDIE. Assuming that that old custom were still used, of flying the flag on the tender, is it not possible that many ships might not be conscious of the presence of that flag and might not see it? Admiral BILLARD. No; this chart is used by all mariners.

Senator ODDIE. In case the flying of the flag on the tender was used to-day, is it not possible that certain ships would not see the flag and be conscious of its presence?

Admiral BILLARD. Quite so; but the point I am making is that if you are told even inferentially that in driving a car, if there be a hole in the street there will be a red flag flying, and you go through there and there is no red flag and you have been warned of a red flag for 20 years, and you run into a hole because there is no red flag, whose fault is it? Is it yours?

Senator ODDIE. In that connection, the driver of a car is supposed to look where he is driving.

Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly; and suppose he is also carefully looking where he is driving? I think that brings the whole thing to a head.

Senator ODDIE. What is your interpretation of "the vicinity," as contained in the notation on the Pilot Chart in reference to submarine warning flag?

Admiral BILLARD. My thought of "the vicinity" is this. It is not my purpose to criticize anybody. We do not find fault with anybody. All we object to is being found fault with when we do not deserve it. I can not escape this fact. Here is Provincetown Harbor, and "the vicinity" would be anywhere around there where the vessel could be seen by incoming traffic; in 3 miles or anywhere around there.

Senator ODDIE. The doctrine in the Navy which teaches submarine officers that when they submerge they must, in general, avoid surface craft, has been mentioned. Give us your understanding of the scope and effect of such a doctrine.

Admiral BILLARD. I can not speak as an expert on that, but I think I can speak as a man of average common sense. I interpret that to mean this; it is necessary in the submarine service for vessels to submerge. A submarine is a peculiar craft, intended particularly to see and not to be seen. So I would understand that doctrine to mean that if a submarine submerges, he must watch out very carefully for surface craft, because the responsibility-to call it such-is his, on account of the peculiar nature of his boat. If it be not his, if the submarine has no particular burden to take care of himself from a surface craft, then all surface craft are seriously hindered and embarrassed, as I said in the opening of my statement.

Senator ODDIE. Do you consider that such a doctrine in any way takes from the submarine any of her rights under the rules of the road, or releases her from any of her obligations thereunder?

Admiral BILLARD. It does not take away any of her obligations, certainly; and as to her rights, I am afraid that in the very language of the doctrine, the submarine has running submerged practically no rights with respect to possible collisons with surface craft, on account of her peculiar nature.

Senator ODDIE. Assuming that you are familiar with this so-called Navy doctrine, would you consider that you were justified in presuming, from a surface craft viewpoint, that you could exercise prerogatives not specifically allowed by the rules of the road, custom, usage, or good seamanship?

Admiral BILLARD. Of course, I do not know of any such prerogatives, but you could exercise the prerogatives of good nautical management and common sense.

Senator ODDIE. Do you consider that this so-called doctrine which teaches submarines to avoid surface craft had any influence on the collision between the Paulding and the S-4?

Admiral BILLARD. I can not answer that, because I do not know what happened in the S-4, at all, you see. I do not know what caused the collision.

Senator ODDIE. Were the Coast Guard personnel permitted or invited to appear before the naval court of inquiry?

Admiral BILLARD. The naval court of inquiry? Why, the commanding officer of the Paulding appeared before the naval court, first as an interested party, and was then declared a defendant. He had an officer of the Coast Guard as his counsel.

Senator ODDIE. Were they accorded the rights of witnesses or of interested parties?

Admiral BILLARD. Who was that?

Senator ODDIE. These men of the Coast Guard personnel? Admiral BILLARD. Oh, yes. The personnel of the Paulding; oh,

yes.

Senator ODDIE. Were the Navy personnel requested to appear before the Coast Guard inquiry as interested parties, and in an effort to get all the facts?

The

Admiral BILLARD. Senator, I am glad to explain that. Secretary of the Treasury convened a board of inquiry of Coast Guard officers for the purpose of carefully examining and weighing the testimony taken before the naval board of inquiry. In other words, this Coast Guard board convened by the Secretary was intended to weigh and appraise the facts recorded in the naval court

testimony; so that there did not appear to be occasion to call Navy personnel in. There would have been no objection whatever to anybody coming in.

Senator ODDIE. Were the naval authorities notified as to this inquiry?

Admiral BILLARD. Not to my knowledge. But I do want the record to show, if it may, that it was not intended to prevent the Navy from being represented, but that the board was convened to read the facts in the testimony and weigh them and pass on them. Senator ODDIE. Is there any notice given the Navy Department of any of the movements of the Coast Guard ships?

Admiral BILLARD. Only in that the positions of our ships as reported to Washington come often through the naval radio stations; and our vessels that tie up at the Boston Navy Yard, for example, would advise the commandant that they were returning and would like a berth-incidentally only.

Senator ODDIE. In the nature of the duties of the Coast Guard ships, do they have any specified course or schedule to follow?

Admiral BILLARD. They operate along certain stretches of coast, and they have no iron-clad schedule. A vessel will be out for five or six days, and then in for rest and recreation, and then out again; no specified times.

Senator ODDIE. But they have heavy duties to perform which require them to go anywhere at any time?

Admiral BILLARD. At any time; in connection usually with rendering aid to a vessel in distress.

Senator ODDIE. Do the Coast Guard ships travel at night without lights?

Admiral BILLARD. The law permits vessels of the Coast Guard to run at night without lights, just as it, I think, permits vessels of the Navy. That is occasionally done for purposes of law enforcement; not ordinarily. It is sometimes done.

Senator ODDIE. But it is sometimes done?

Admiral BILLARD. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. When ships are running without lights at night, are they not a menace to navigation?

Admiral BILLARD. I know of no Coast Guard vessel that has ever been a menace to navigation. I should say that if a collision occurred under such circumstances-and I know of none-the burden of responsibility would primarily rest on the Coast Guard vessel, although the law specifically authorizes her to run that way.

Senator ODDIE. If she was running at night without lights, would she not be regarded by navigators as a menace to navigation?

Admiral BILLARD. I think not; no, sir. I think the primary responsibility for avoiding collision would then rest on the Coast Guard boat; just as, in my humble judgment, it rests with other than the Paulding in this instance.

Senator ODDIE. It is a recognized fact, Admiral, that the modern submarine is a ship of large radius of action, and that in its regular duties and trial tests, it is necessary to travel longer distances from port than previously with the smaller ships?

Admiral BILLARD. I judge so, yes, sir. Senator, may I read a brief paragraph from the West Coast of England Pilot, published by order of the Lords commissioners of the Admiralty? England has