E when given the homely definition of a stone got from the earth that burned, and by which their food might be cooked, they laughed, and, as a free translation of their Hindustani reply, told the would-be employer to "Tell that to the Marines; cow-dung and wood were the only two articles of fuel." The Labour Laws in connection with Assam have not answered the purpose intended. I am no advocate of Government interference with private enterprise, but I think the establishment of a Labour Bureau by the State, with an earnest desire that the industries of India should, for the sake of the people and the country, be well supported, might do a good deal in obtaining supplies of labour. Government might be able to interest zemindars in emigration, for, like Shakespeare's definition of the quality of mercy, migration is twice blessed. It blesseth him who gives and him who takes. The native seldom separates himself permanently from home and soil. He remits part of his earnings to his home, and looks forward eventually to returning thither. I have often thought that were the zemindars far-seeing and worldly-wise they would capture some of the wages expended in the industrial pursuits of India, through land rent realisable from that portion of the family remaining at home, and from the emigrants on their return. I have said I do not care about Government interference. If investments are sound and realisable, there will be plenty of money to undertake the development of the country by private enterprise. I have always believed much more in the development of Indian industries through Grocers-hall and Threadneedle-street, than through the intervention of the Palace of Westminster. In saying so much I do not forget that the Government factories at Cawnpore, Alipur, and Cossipore enabled India to send saddles, boots, tents, harness, uniforms, shell, and ammunition as supplies for the South Africa War, and with the fodder and horseflesh also exported, did great service to the Empire. From some of these industries Government should, in course of time, withdraw. We must feel inclined to shun Westminster since the Budget proposals for an additional import duty on tea were made known. It does seem a great pity that a tax should be imposed to check the consumption at home of a very important and desirable article of produce. It gives other nations, including the neighbouring countries of Afghanistan and Thibet, the excuse to uphold prohibitive tariffs. Continental countries have followed the example of Britain in the import duties levied on tea, and when we hear such loud protestations on behalf of the policy of Empire, and an endeavour, as I believe the Government of India has been endeavouring, to open up further commercial intercourse with its neighbours, this action of the British Government seems contradictory, as in terms of the commercial treaty Thibet and Afghanistan have the right, I understand, to levy a Customs' duty similar to that imposed on tea entering the United Kingdom. I doubt if much tea will cross the Thibetan border with an 8d. duty. I think we have reason to ask the British Government for some relief. Mr. J. A. BAINES, C.S.I., submitted that so far as Mr. O'Conor had confined himself in his paper to the statistical aspects of the progress of India, he had taken the thoroughly moderate and commonsense view that an experienced and honest treatment of figures naturally suggests. He could not, however, help differing from Mr. O'Conor in his standard of comparison. When he set forth the progress made in India between one date and another he might perhaps also have found the same difference in this country between the latter half of the 18th century and that of the 19th century, or even between the first 40 years and the last of the latter period. On the other hand, when comparing-as one must in estimating the growth in prosperity of a country-not one country with itself at two periods of its own history, but with different countries, either during the same period, or in the corresponding stage of civilisation, one ought to take heed that one was working pari materia, and under conditions which were properly comparable. But, as Mr. Rees had pointed out, to compare East and West, in other words, to compare India with the United Kingdom, would not be comparing material which was properly susceptible of comparison. The standard was entirely different, as the primary needs of the one country were totally different from those of the other. He was inclined to think that the proper comparison would have been between Oriental countries, say, India and China, -the two largest aggregates of population under one rule in the civilised world. He used the word "civilised" deliberately; because a great deal had been heard about the advance of civilisation and the advance of material prosperity from our Western standpoint, but it must be remembered that the civilisation of India and China was in its way quite as elaborate and far-reaching as that of Wes ern countries. The one great object in the administration of India was, either by direct Government action, or, at all events, by the protective action of the Government, to allow the Indians to evolve, as they were competent to do, a civilisation of their own on that great basis which they already possessed, and not to impose upon them partially assimilable attributes which are alien to the climate and their scheme of life. There was in the caste system a very fine basis of morality and religion; and whether it expanded fast enough or not the fact remained that were it not for that system Indian society would not be what it is, and would not have survived the shock of all the invasions of different nationalities and religions which it had withstood from time immemorial. Professor W. J. SIMPSON said he fully agreed with the author that there had been considerable progress in regard to the material side of India. On the other hand, there was one point affecting the industrial position of India, that Mr. O'Conor had not touched upon, but which had been mentioned by Sir Patrick Playfair, namely, the increasing difficulty in regard to the labour market. He had heard complaints from many merchants of the difficulty in obtaining coolies for the tea gardens, and also the difficulty in procuring workmen for the mills, in fact, for labour generally. Only last year the matter was discussed by the Bombay Chamber of Commerce, and the question arose, What is this due to? The Indian coolie was not, like the native of South Africa was said to be, a lazy individual, but was quite willing to work under normal conditions. So far as he (Prof. Simpson) understood, it was only within the last seven or eight years that the difficulty with regard to the labour question had arisen, and he ventured to think that it was due in great measure to the plague epidemic. Last year no fewer than 800,000 deaths occurred among people belonging to the labouring classes, and this year the numbers would be very little less, for he noticed that during April alone there were nearly 40,000 deaths every week. There were in India 300 millions of inhabitants, but no country could afford to lose one in 300 of its population continuously from one disease. The mortality in the South African War during the whole of the three years did not come up to one week's mortality from plague in India; and if the entire armies of Kuropatkin and Kuroki were destroyed at the present time the mortality would not be equal in magnitude to the deaths from plague in India in the course of six months: but there was no indication that the people of this country were at all aroused by this state of affairs. It was neither the time nor the place to enter into a discussion of the question as to what the Indian Government had or had not done to ameliorate that calamity; but the epidemic had an important bearing on the material condition of India; and no one could say that the enormous mortality from plague was an indication of prosperity. Mr. ROBERT H. ELLIOT said the first question arising as to the economic condition of any country was: Does capital go freely to it or not? Only quite recently he had met an eminent economist at the Athenæum Club, who had said to him that capital would never go to India so long as there was an artificial system of currency which could be altered at any time at the will of the Government. The next question which arose was: What was the condition of the industries of India? He could speak as to that, as he had been engaged in Indian industries since 1856. One had only to go to Bombay and ask about the mills which had been shut up, or inquire into the condition and prospects of any other Indian industry in order to find that there is a general state of depression, and the economical and industrial condition, and the cause of the existing depression as regards both, have not been touched upon in the paper, and most of the people connected with India did not, for obvious reasons, care to discuss the sub The CHAIRMAN desired to thank Mr. O'Conor, not only for his very valuable and interesting paper, but for the very interesting discussion which it had evoked. It had been from his point of view most instructive, and it had been a great pleasure to him to preside at the meeting and listen to the remarks which had fallen from the speakers. Prof. Simpson had drawn attention to the great mortality in India on account of plague. No doubt what that gentleman had said was perfectly correct, and it was an extremely serious matter; but the question was, How could it be stopped? During the last year or two it had been stated that it was not so much the plague which had made labour scarce as the cheapness of food. He had been told that the price of rice was lower in Calcutta than it had been for twenty years, and that a man could get sufficient to fill his stomach by working two or three days instead of having to work the whole week. Whether that statement was correct he was not prepared to say, but he understood it to be the case. The vote of thanks to Mr. O'Conor was carried unanimously. Mr. O'CONOR writes:-I must entirely decline to accept the view that it is not fair to compare India with Western countries, and that a fair comparison would only lie with such a country as China. As an indication of the advance that has been made in India, a comparison with China, or Persia, or Siam, has its uses, and that comparison can be said to have been made by me. I stated at considerable length the difference between the India of to-day and the India of the pre-Mutiny period, and we may take it that the comparison holds equally good for the countries mentioned, which may be said to be to-day in an economic condition as little advanced as was that of India fifty years ago. But this is only part of the inquiry. We have not only to measure the progress made from the starting point by comparing present conditions with pre-existing conditions; we have also to measure the present conditions by the test of modern efficiency, and when we do this we must necessarily take another standard. As a matter of history, it is interesting to note the difference between a modern rifle and the musquetoon of Cromwellian days, but if we wish to test the practical efficiency of our rifle we take an entirely different standard of comparison, and judge of the article by similar articles used by modern armies. In the same way, while pointing to the great progress made since India was in a rudimentary economic condition, I maintain that I am right in pointing out how many more stages must be travelled before India can come near even a backward Western country. Such a comparison should be welcomed as a stimulus to activity, and I confess I see with regret once again that unfortunate tendency of Indian administrators to be satisfied with a low and obsolete standard of comparison with the past, and to resent the setting-up of higher and better modern standards for comparison. I call that tendency unfortunate because I believe that it generates a sluggish self-complacency fatal to the development of active endeavour and, therefore, injurious to the country we administer. Sir William Lee-Warner admits that the land revenue is probably too high except in Bengal, where it is too low. If he had gone a little deeper into this question he would not have failed, I am sure, to recognise that though the Government revenue from the land in Bengal is low, it allows the zemindar to take a competition rent from the cultivator, a rent which is certainly at least as high in proportion as that which is taken in provinces where the Government assesses the cultivator direct. Whether an unduly high rent is taken direct by the Government or by the middleman with the sanction of Government does not matter. My argument is that the cultivator should be protected against excessive enhancements of his payments, whether they are made to the State or to the middleman created by the State. I wish the gentlemen who took part in the discussion to all of whom I am obliged for their courteous reception of my paper-had expressed their views on the need of much closer and earnest effort in the diffusion of primary education, especially of such education as fits a boy to follow with trained intelligence and acquired skill the calling to which he belongs, whether he is an agriculturist or an artisan. Herein lies our primary duty to India, and I trust that it may very soon become impossible to say with truth that it is still neglected. Sir GUILFORD L. MOLESWORTH, K.C.I.E., writes:-There can be no doubt that India has made great progress of late, and that this progress has been due to the splendid work of administration and to the policy which has embarked in a large extension of irrigation works and railways. The only point which I would venture to criticise in the paper is that, in accounting for the undeveloped condition of the enormous industrial wealth of India, whilst it very properly lays great stress on the absence of demand, consequent on the low social conditions of a large number of the natives of India, it fails to attach any importance to the question of unlimited foreign competition, which has crushed out the once flourishing industries of India, and which now forms a great impediment to the development of India's industrial resources. As long ago as 1885 I wrote an article in the Calcutta Review, from which the following is an extract: “India has untold wealth, wonderful natural resources, whether agricultural, mineral, or industrial; but they are, to a great extent, dormant. It has coal of an excellent quality, it has fine petroleum, large quantities of timber and charcoal; it has iron of a purity that would make an English iron-master's mouth water, spread wholesale over the country, in most places to be had by light quarrying over the surface it has chrome iron capable of making the finest Damascus blades, manganiferous ores; splendid hematites in profusion. It has gold, silver, lead, antimony, tin, copper, plumbago, lime, kaolin, mica, gypsum, precious stones, asbestos; soft wheat, equal to the finest Australian; hard wheat, equal to the finest Kabanka. It has food grains of every description; oil-seeds, tobacco, tea, coffee, cocoa, sugar, spices, lac, dyes, cotton, jute, hemp, flax, coir, fibres of every description; in fact, products too numerous. to mention. Its inhabitants are frugal, thrifty, industrious, capable of great physical exertion, docile, easily taught, skilful in any work requiring delicate manipulation. Labour is absurdly cheap, and the soil for the most part wonderfully productive, and capable of producing crop after crop without any symptoms of exhaustion. The present yield of wheat is about 26,500,000 quarters in excess of the total imports of wheat into England; and, in the Pubjab alone, there is cultivable waste land sufficient to produce 12,000,000 quarters, besides enormous tracts in Burmah, and other parts of India, only requiring irrigation or population to bring them under the plough. . . . . Everywhere in India may be seen evidence of native iron manufacture crushed out by unlimited foreign competition. Throughout the whole country may be found old slag-heaps, testifying to the former prosperity of native iron industries; the splendid native iron being superseded by cheap, worthless iron of foreign manufacture." The coal fields of India, so far as they have been explored, cover an area of 35,000 square miles, and are estimated to contain 20,000,000,000 tons. Some of the seams are from 70 to 100 feet thick. In Bengal and Assam there is a coal nearly equal, in evaporative power, to medium Welsh steam coal, though not equal to Aberdare. Ball, in his "Economic Geology" says that in some parts of India the development of iron ore is "on a scale of extraordinary and almost unparalleled magnitude, whole hills and ranges being formed of the purest varieties of it." There is also in India the potential energy of millions of horse-power in water flowing from the Western ghats, which might be devoted to industrial purposes, but which is only used in the irrigation of the deltas, when it has nearly reached sea-level. Sir Lepel Griffin, speaking about two years ago on the subject of India's industrial resources, pointed out that the questions of Free Trade and Protection which differed in every part of the world "must in India be discussed with instant and direct regard to the interests of India itself." He urged the desirability of imposing duties in India to encourage Indian arts and manufactures, and also for revenue purposes "to raise the dead weight of taxation from the land," and that it was necessary that the question should not be decided on English grounds, or by English people, but by the Government in Calcutta, in the interests of India alone. No attempt has been made to foster trade between India and the mother country, or the colonies, by the interchange of concessions which would be mutually advantageous. Capital will not flow to those countries in which its operations are checked, and its struggling industries swamped, by unlimited foreign competition. Sir Charles Elliott, formerly Public Works' Minister in India, wrote in the Empire Review of last May :"It seems to be clearly established that it is possible to introduce a preferential treatment of all British dutiable goods imported into India, and of certain dutiable goods imported into England with great mutual advantage," and Lord Curzon lately remarked:-"Whatever the merits of Free Trade as a system suited to these or those national circumstances, it probably carries with it a defect of its qualities in inducing too great apathy towards the exertion of Governmental action in trade matters. Non-interference, laissez faire,' may easily degenerate into an indolent attitude of mind, and then it is politically vicious." The imports into India now amount in value to £54,000,000 annually, and a moderate duty on these imports would not be felt by the masses, but would raise a revenue which would afford material relief where most needed in reducing the land taxes. I cannot quite agree with Mr. O'Conor that there is no field for the export of Indian industries. There can be no doubt that India has every requisite for manufacturing at a low rate of cost, and there is no reason why, with a well-considered system of customs duties, she should not supply both England and the Colonies with those things which they cannot produce. As regards internal consumption, the statistics of our imports show that there is a large and increasing demand. Take, for example, sugar, which India is in a position to manufacture as cheaply as any country in the world, yet sugar, probably bounty-fed, to the value of about £4 000,000 sterling is imported into India annually. Take again cotton, which India can grow in such abundance that in 1901-02 she exported it, in its raw state, to the value of about £9,000,0Co sterling; yet the value of manufactured cotton goods imported into India during the same period amounted to more than £20,000,COO. India formerly produced excellent cotton, but it has degenerated, and is of short staple. The InspectorGeneral of Agriculture declares that our know. ledge of indigenous cotton is incomplete, and although it has deteriorated, its degeneration is not due to inferior cultivation or to exhausted soil, for the black cotton soil is very fertile; but he attributes the deterioration to the "continuous use of the same strain of unselected seed." Others also say that the short staple is due to a great extent to careless and improper cropping. Be this as it may, there is very little doubt that if the cotton-growing industry in India had been fostered, the quality would have been improved, and the quantity ncreased, and Lancashire would not have been dependent on the speculations of American cotton rings for its supply. Again, taking the question of the demand for iron and steel. The London and North Western Railway Company, with its 300 or 400 miles of railway, manufactures its own steel rails, chairs, permanent way material, bridges, locomotives, and carriages, and surely India, with its 27,000 miles of railway, ought to be sufficient to support a demand for internal consumption. It has been said that Lord Kitchener intends that India in its army supplies shall be made self-supporting, and independent of other countries; and it is to be hoped that if such a policy is to be carried out it will be a step towards the development of India's great but undeveloped industrial wealth. General Notes. COTTON GROWING.-Reports from the Colony of the Gambia, from Lagos, and Mozambique respecting experiments in cotton-growing are quoted in the Board of Trade Journal. It is stated that the experiments in the Colony of the Gambia, begun in 1902, have proved encouraging, especially in the Upper River Districts. About 150 tons of unginned cotton grown during 1903 have been received by the cotton expert this year, and it is hoped that the area under cultivation will be greatly extended this season. The experiments in cotton cultivation in the territories of the Mozambique Company have been fully successful. The fact that the climate and soil are admirably adapted to the production of long staple cotton of the best quality seems now definitely established. MEETINGS FOR THE ENSUING WEEK. JESDAY, JUNE 21. Statistical, 9, Adelphi terrace, W.C. I. "The Third Report from the Society s Committee on Meat and Milk Production." 2. Mr. R. Henry Rew, Observations on the Production of Meat and Dairy Products in the United Kingdom." WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22...SOCIETY OF ARTS, John-street, Adelphi, W.C., 5 p.m. Colonel Viktor Balck, "The Northern Games in Stockholm and Sweden, and its People." Geological, Burlington-house, W.. 8 pm. Royal Society of Literature, 20, Hanover square, THURSDAY, JUNE 23... Antiquaries, Burlington-house, W., 8 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 24...Society of Women Journalists (at the |