comes, I shall be ready to give it a fair hearing. But at present, the bill stands upon no complaint. There can be no mischief in postponing it; but there may be much mischief, if you give the people French despotic government, and Canadian law, by act of parliament. By a delay of a year, they would be kept out of the advantage of having Canadian law universally established, which Canadian law universally establishes a despotism; and there is nothing left to complain of but the despotism established by necessity. At present, they bear that grievance; but a grievance by necessity, and a grievance established by law, are two very different things. Supposing the bill to be delayed for a whole year, the extent of the evil on our side will be, that we shall have more information; and as for the Canadians, they will remain a little longer in the same situation in which they are at present. If you were prepared to give them a free constitution, I should be in haste to go on; but necessity-"necessity, the tyrant's plea" -is urged for proceeding immediately.

Let us have evidence, then, of that necessity. I stand for the necessity of information; without which—without great, cogent, luminous information-I, for one, will never give my vote for establishing the French law in that country. I should be sorry to see his Majesty a despotic governor. And am I sure that this despotism is not meant to lead to universal despotism? When that country cannot be governed as a free country, I question whether this can. No free country can keep another country in slavery. The price they pay for it will be their own servitude. The constitution proposed is one which men never will, and never ought to bear. When we are sowing the seeds of despotism in Canada, let us bear in mind, that it is a growth which may afterwards extend to other countries. By being made perpetual, it is evident that this constitution is meant to be both an instrument of tyranny to the Canadians, and an example to others of what they have to expect; at some time or other it will come home to England. When it is proved that the laws of England could not govern Canada, zt will be plain that some stronger power than the laws of England is necessary to govern this country. I shall give my first vote upon this bill, against the despotic government there; whether it is to be established for any length of time, or to be established at all by Parliament. When you cannot make a free government, you ought to leave a country to be governed by the force of necessity. Government, and a free government, are two different things; but with regard to those laws which are in use at present, I cannot form an opinion-1 know nothing of the custom of Canada. I should be glad to receive proper information. When I have received proper information, I will then endeavour to speak to the merits of the bill as far as I can: at present, I cannot form any opinion, I wish to have I understood, that what I have now said relates solely to the question of information.

EXAMINATION OF GENERAL CARLETON, GOVERNOR-GENERAL OF CANADA

Will you give the committee an account of the commerce and government of Canada, when you first arrived in that country as governor?-1 am not prepared to give an account of the trade; it would extend very far, and require several papers which I have not here

I beg you to give an account of the state of the government at that time-in what respect?

I understood when you went over as governor, that you established a form of government. In what manner was the civil government carried on in Canada-The civi government consisted of a governor and council. They were authorized to make laws and regulations in the province, under certain restrictions Both the questions are extremely wide; I do not know precisely what the gentleman's ideas are 1 1 nac thought it essentia I would have procured papers from the Custom-House of the imports and exports. 1 1 nat ivec m the country fifty years. I should not nave been abit to give a precise account without having the papers in my nanc

What was the mode of proceeding in the courts of justice wher arrived there?-The justice of the province was distributed by two cone

the Supreme Court and the Court of Common Pleas, and likewise by other courts which had power more restrained and confined than the Court of Common Pleas.

What was the form of trial in the Court of King's Bench?—I hope the committee will not expect I should state that with accuracy. The chief justice should do it. I think the Supreme Court or Court of King's Bench, was according to the English form.

General Conway.-I do not mean to object to the question of the honourable gentleman, but I submit to his consideration, whether as we are to hear the chief justice, and the attorney-general of Quebec, it is not more proper to put the question to them.

Mr. Mackworth.-Were any objections made to that mode of trial?— There are two sets of people in Canada: one, those who call themselves the ancient subjects, the other the new subjects. The first are very well satisfied with the form of justice administered in the Court of King's Bench; the other, the newly acquired subjects, are extremely satisfied with the integrity of the court, but extremely dissatisfied with the mode of trial. Their dissatisfaction arises, first from the great expense that the court draws them into; and in the next place, from all the proceedings being in a language they do not understand: they are likewise not satisfied with juries. They are extremely flattered and pleased that there are to be juries; that they are to be admitted to be of the number; but they think it very strange that the English residing in Canada should prefer to have matters of law decided by tailors and shoemakers, mixed up with respectable gentlemen in trade and commerce; that they should prefer their decision to that of the judge.

Have they been dissatisfied with the judgments that have passed in the Court of King's Bench? I cannot say I ever heard a complaint of the kind.

If juries were composed of the species of men such as they approved of, would they disapprove of the mode of trial by jury?—The great object with the Canadians would be to procure justice; and to procure it at a reasonable and moderate expense: these are the essential points. As to the mode of trial, whether by jury or by the judge, they would prefer the latter from custom, habit, and education. I am not authorized to speak for the Canadians, to assert that they absolutely pray against juries. They certainly are attached to their own customs and manners. I am willing to give as much information as is in my power, but the chief justice is much better qualified than I am.

If the expense was moderate, and the jury composed of proper men, would they object to that mode of trial on account of thinking they should not have justice done them in the trial?—I cannot say that the Canadians would wish to adopt it: on the contrary, I have heard them make objections to it. How far those objections will carry weight, I know not.

Is not the trial by jury in the Court of Common Pleas optional? I understand so.

Do you know that the Canadians of late, in the trials in that court, have chosen the trial by jury to decide their causes?-In general, I under stand not.

Can you give any authentic account of the number of Protestant subjects now in the province of Quebec?-I had the return of the province last April of the number of Protestants in the year 1770. By that return, I believe, every body who calls himself a Protestant is included. By that account they are under four hundred men, about three hundred and sixty, besides women and children, in the whole colony of Canada. I am afraid their numbers are diminished since.

Do you think the diminution of the number of British subjects is an advantage or disadvantage to the province?—That is a political question. I am afraid their circumstances have been so reduced, as to compel them to quit the province; I speak from humanity. I do not mean to give any political opinion upon the subject.

In general, are these three hundred and sixty persons composed of

men if substance and property in the province?-There are some who have purchased lands-cicers, or reduced odicers, some very respectable nerchants, there are other inferior officers in trade, and a good many disjandet withers. In general, they are composed of people of small property. What do you think may be the number of the new subjects of Canada? -About one hundred and fifty thousand souls; all Roman Catholics.

In the conversation you have had with the Canadians in general, are hey not very earnest for the restitution of the ancient Canadian laws?They were very much so, when I was in the province; and by the accounts I have received since I came to England, they still continue very earnest ndeed, and anxious about it.

Have they expressed lately any apprehension on seeing plans of government sent over, that those plans should take place, or any satisfaction ir tesire that they should? They have expressed great uneasiness at the prehension, and more warmth than is usual for that people. They seem tetermined to form associations and compacts to resist the English law, f they should be compelled to do it, as far as they could do so with lecency and their duty to the government would permit.

Have the clergy in Canada since the peace enjoyed and received the thes and parochial dues?-They have received the tithes and parochial mes as formerly; there may be some who have not, but very few; as few a hose gentlemen who receive their rents; they are as well paid as the

ents.

Mr. Charles Fix-Did they receive the tithes and dues only from the Roman Catholics, or from the Protestants likewise?-I really do not know; here are so few Protestants that cultivate the land

Was there an idea that the Protestant landholders were exempt from ang the-I have heard some of the clergy say, that in the uncertain tate of things, they would not ask the Protestants to pay unless they chose M is there were opinions spread among them, that it was not agreeable he English law to try the right, they would have to encounter the great ense of the law. I think it induced them to act with great moderation nd fiscretion in the matter; hoping in a short time, that the laws would be ertamed, that they might know what ought to be paid and what not Did those few British subjects inhabit the towns of Quebec and MontChiedy; there are very few in the country, so few, that they are arcely I be seen in travelling through it, as there are but three hundred 24 anty in a district of three hundred miles long, and very wide.

Sari North—is not the cultivation of the lands entirely in the hands The Canadians-Almost entirely.

What part of the trade is in the hands of the Canadians?-I have rari about two-thirds.

is not the trade much increased?-I understand the trade is increased

Do you attribute that increase to the trial by jury, or introducing so if the English law as has been introduced?-No; they have no sentence upon that at all.

Can you assign any probable reason to what it is to be attributed?The maiony of Quebec was in its state of infancy; it is so still, in some They have been now fourteen years quiet. The country has led very fast; besides the natural increase of population, there have a great many Acadians, who had come into the province; people taken America and Nova Scotia, that were scattered in the province during aurse of the war. As the people multiply, they act as a sort of hers: they take possession of the lands behind their own, so that they nitivating the country very fast

Do you not think the old inhabitant in Canada is receiving considerable antage from the change of the disposition of the inhabitants, from a tary to a commercial life?-No doubt he is. Under the French governthe spint of the government was military, and conquest was the intect very large detachments were sent up every year to the Chio, ther interior parts of the continent of North America. This drew

them from their land, prevented their marriages, and great numbers of them perished in those different services they were sent upon. Since the conquest, they have enjoyed peace and tranquility; they have had more time and leisure to cultivate their land, and have had more time to extend their settlements backwards; the natural consequence of which is, that wheat is grown in great abundance. I have been very well informed, that we have exported large quantities of wheat.

Colonel Barré.-I submit, whether it would not be better to go through one particular part first, without going into any other.

Lord North. It is almost impossible. No man can know how many questions every particular member has to ask upon this point.

Colonel Barré.-I have only one question to ask upon that point, reserving myself to ask others; it follows from the noble lord's question. If by any means that same warlike spirit was introduced again, would it not introduce the like disagreeable and bad consequences?-I take it, that a spirit of war in that, and in all countries, is very much against population and the cultivation of land.

What measures in that country would put an end to this spirit?—Their being subdued by the people they meant to conquer.

Lord North.-Has not the increase of the agriculture been the principal cause of the increase of the commerce?-It is so understood.

Do you not understand, that the great capitals of our merchants, their great knowledge, and their spirit in trade, have likewise contributed to the increase of it?-I believe they may have been of advantage.

Are the Canadian inhabitants desirous of having assemblies in the province? Certainly not.

Have they not thought with horror of an assembly in the country, if it should be composed of the old British inhabitants now resident there?No doubt it would give them great offence.

Would they not greatly prefer a government by the governor and legislative council to such an assembly?—No doubt they would.

Do you not think a free exportation of corn contributed to the encouragement of population and agriculture, as much as any of the foregoing causes? The population was the first effect; the cultivation of the land was the consequence.

Was it necessary to have any land to be qualified to serve on a jury in the country?—I believe there is very little nicety in that matter; there is too great a scarcity of Protestants. I beg leave to add, in the list of jurors I mentioned, there were a great number of disbanded soldiers that kept tippling houses.

Is that the only idea of the assembly, that you ever knew suggested to the Canadians, and to which they returned their answer?-I put the question to several of the Canadians. They told me assemblies had drawn upon the other colonies so much distress, had occasioned such riots and confusion, that they wished never to have one of any kind whatever.

Did not the Canadians likewise think, that assemblies would draw upon them expences as well as distress?-By distress I meant the displeasure of this country. No, they never stated that.

Have you never heard, that they imagined they should be obliged to pay the expence of government as soon as they had assemblies, but that until they had them they were not to pay the expence?—No, that was not the idea of the Canadians; they dislike it as not being comformable to their ancient customs.

Do you mean indiscriminately the whole law, civil and criminal?— The civil law.

Do you think, if all their customs of descent and heritage were pre served, that they would be dissatisfied with the introduction of trial by jury?—With regard to any portion of their law, one custom separate from another, I believe they would be extremely hurt to have any part of their customs taken from them, except where the commercial interest of the country may require a reasonable preference, and such commercial laws as can be especially mentioned to them. I believe they would make no

objection to any such commercial laws, if they may know what those laws are. But laws in the bulk, which nobody can explain to them, they think would be delivering them over a prey to every body that goes there as an attorney or lawyer.

Was the dissatisfaction expressed by the Canadians at large, or by the corps of noblesse?-They were pretty unanimous in most points; as unanimous as so large a body could be expected to be.

Are the noblesse better pleased with a jury in criminal causes?—I never heard objections made to the criminal law, except in one instance. Very soon after I went into the province, there were some Canadian gentlemen and some English gentlemen arrested for a very great crime indeed'. They were accused of a very great crime indeed. They were committed to gaol until the next trial. It was the unanimous sense of the province that they were innocent, and they were found innocent at their trial. Upon that occasion, I heard several of the Canadian noblesse complain of the English law; but, upon my word, I recollect no complaint of the criminal law but upon that occasion.

What was the nature of the complaint?-They complained that upon the deposition of one man of very bad fame, gentlemen should be committed to prison, and there remain a considerable time before they could come upon their trial. They said, that under the former law, more than one information would have been taken, and an inquiry made by the King's attorney-general, and that those gentlemen would not have been arrested if such information had been taken, as their innocence by that means would have appeared.

Has there been any other trial by jury for a capital offence?—I do not remember to have heard of any.

Have there been any considerable number of trials for offences among the common people?-Very few, to my knowledge.

What number of these noblesse is there is this country?-My memory will not suffer me to tell.

Nearly?—I suppose a hundred and fifty; I speak at random.

What is the occupation of them; do any of them trade?—I believe very few; they are not fond of trade. They have been brought up in the troops; they do not apparently trade; perhaps they may have connexions with some that do.

Do you know from the Canadians themselves, what sort of administration of justice prevailed under the French government, whether pure or corrupt?-Very pure in general; I never heard complaints of the administration of justice under the French government.

Was it so pure, that there was no room for favour from the judge?— The intendant of the province was chief in matters of justice.

What was his general character?-With regard to his character as chief justice, I believe it was unexceptionable. It can never be the interest of a sensible man to connive at, or suffer, iniquity in courts of justice. The matters in dispute are very small between neighbour and neighbour, and he would only incense the people for very little purpose. The French mtendant had other methods of making large sums of money, and enriching his favourites, if he had a mind to do it.

Was the administration of justice, in the other branch, equally pure?— He was at the head of all justice. He had his delegates, who presided in small matters in the other parts of the province. There was an appeal from the others to the intendant.

Were the decisions of the court in the three districts always just?— I believe so; I never heard any complaints from the people, that the courts of justice were not properly administered. I have heard of great fortunes made in another manner.

If their favourite laws and favourite customs were preserved to them, would they not, in every other case, take the law of England? They do not know what the law of England is; they call the law of England the 1 The Walker Case. See Kingsford, History of Canada, vol. V.