Commissioner MYERS. Senator, from these figures that I am giving you here, that have come directly from our records, there is a surplus of inward cargo for all these lines, and, as the Senator figured it there, of about one-eighth. We are getting about one-eighth of it. In other words, there is about eight times as much as we are taking care of now, of inward cargo.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, if all the cargo should have to go on our ships, it is far more than they could carry?

Commissioner MYERS. Yes. We have a right to 50 per cent, I think, and as the business builds up, this cargo will increase rapidly, and in the next two years you will see a tremendous increase in it.

I heard something stated here about sugar plants and things of that kind. I do not know what is going to be built. We are not destitute out there. I heard some comments about borrowing money in Shanghai for building ships. I am frank to say that Mr. Ainsworth, president of the Columbia Pacific Co., one of the oldest companies on the coast, which has about $15,000,000 in assets, is the president also of the United States National Bank, with resources of about $75,000,000 more, and I think that such talk is an insult to the people of the Pacific coast, saying that we have to go to Shanghai to borrow money. Seattle or Tacoma are able financially to take care of anything of that kind. Such comments are not fair to the Pacific coast.

The CHAIRMAN. Your position is that you do not think there are surplus ships on the California lines that could be used as has been contended here?

Commissioner MYERS. I do not think there are any surplus ships on the Pacific. I think we ought to have about 50 more.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you understand my question. I did not have that phase of it in mind, at all.

Commissioner MYERS. I know you agree with me on that.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. What I had in mind was this. It is contended here that there is a surplus of five, six or seven ships in the California line under these specifications. As I understand your position, you do not think that there is that surplus.

Commissioner MYERS. No, sir, I do not think there is any surplus on the Pacific. I think we are in need of more ships.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not ask you that question, Mr. Commissioner.

Commissioner MYERS. I do not understand what you are trying to get at on this line

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to get at this on this California line. The contention has been that there are five or six or seven surplus ships on that line. You do not understand that is the case?

Commissioner MYERS. I do not, if I have faith in the Pacific growing as it is, and business growing as it is. I do not have faith in that surplus, because I do not see how it can possibly exist. The CHAIRMAN. You do not understand me.

Commissioner MYERS. Perhaps I do not get the question, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. My question is this. It has been contended here that under the specifications under which these bids have to be submitted, there will be five or six or seven ships of the California line not needed to maintain the minimum service required by these

specifications. Now then, is that true? If that is true, it is contended that those ships can be used to rove about. You would not favor that?

Commissioner MYERS. Senator, I want to get these ships straightened out. There are two California lines. One, you know, goes to North and South China, the other to Australia and New Zealand.

The CHAIRMAN. These are the ones that are advertised for sale. Commissioner MYERS. There certainly could not be any question about North and South China lines. As to the New Zealand and Australian lines, I do not know whether there is any surplus in those ships now. I think there are eight or nine running there. That is a consolidation that has been made since I came on the board, and I am not familiar with that in its entirety.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know a thing about it, but I know that it has been very earnestly and seriously contended here in this hearing that of the ships of the California line that is known as the California Line under the route, there are 21 ships that are to be sold under these specifications.

Commissioner MYERS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And that under the minimum service required by these specifications there would only be about 14 or 16 of those ships necessary to maintain a minimum service there, and five or six or seven ships that could be taken anywhere in the United States. Now, assume that that is correct; you would not favor the ratification of the

Commissioner MYERS. I would not impose an unreasonable condition on any community.

The CHAIRMAN. That would require a change in the specifications? Commissioner MYERS. If there was no freight.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Commissioner, that would require a change in these specifications, would it not?

Commissioner MYERS. It would probably require a change when these bids were accepted.

The CHAIRMAN. You would make a change in your specifications after the bids all came in? Is that fair to anybody who wanted to bid?

Commissioner MYERS. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. After the specifications were put out?

Commissioner MYERS. I think the board has power when these bids are accepted to specify the conditions under which the purchasers have to operate.

The CHAIRMAN. But is it fair to people who would like to bid, to change the specifications after bids are opened?

Commissioner MYERS. I do not think it would be a change.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it would be a substantial change.

Commissioner MYERS. I am not familiar enough to know all of the details as to whether that surplus exists, because that is the duty of the operating department.

The CHAIRMAN. Well

Senator FLETCHER. These people claim that they can not bid with five or six tramps interfering with their cargoes, and they do not know how to bid otherwise than with the specifications as they are. If they should bid for these ships and then there should be

turned loose five or six or seven ships in there to come up and take

their cargoes

Commissioner MYERS. They are taking only one-eighth of the available freight now. How are they losing anything? Do you not want American ships to get the cargo is they can have it?

Senator FLETCHER. According to your figures, the outgo is taking the full capacity?

Commissioner MYERS. Yes, full capacity; and there is lots of freight left there. If there were any surplus ships there would be cargo there for them. We do not want to shut out American ships in favor of foreigners, do we? It is just as I spoke about Coos Bay. Here is Coos Bay with a showing of 176 billion feet of standing timber, and here is a report from that port in which the statement is made that in the year 1927 not a single American ship but one barkentine went in there.

(The statement referred to is here printed, as follows:)

The CHAIRMAN. Your contention is that the Pacific lines are now getting loaded all the time with all the cargo that they can carry?

Commissioner MYERS. And always will be.

The CHAIRMAN. And that there is plenty of cargo there that other ships can get?

Commissioner MYERS. The only thing that disturbs me in Puget Sound is what Senator Jones asked, whether they could make that number of voyages and, if they can not, we can reduce it. There is no question about our power to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. But you will have to change your specifications? Commissioner MYERS. No, we can change the contract on that; if a man can not make it, he can not.

Senator FLETCHER. They are making 27 voyages now, and it is only required that they shall make 24?

Commissioner MYERS. I think, myself, it is pretty strong. I think the Puget Sound voyage is pretty strong.

Senator FLETCHER. Are those Canadian ships owned by the railroad company?

Commissioner MYERS. I do not know, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard the telegrams read in the protests that I filed at the beginning of the hearing, in which it was set out that the Tacoma people had asked for more time. Will you tell the committee why time was not granted to these people to give them an opportunity to come down here and present their matter?

Commissioner MYERS. Yes, sir. I have a number of telegrams here from business people on the coast.