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half of the shipping would receive such a message, and it would mean nothing if they did get it..

Senator GERRY. Let us carry this idea out a little further. If you know where your submarines are going to operate a few days in advance, which you do, the report could go out the way that weather reports go out to shipping.

Admiral HUGHES. I think that would be magnifying it and

unnecessary.

Senator GERRY. You do not feel that as a warning it would give notice to the other ships to be careful in certain areas?

Admiral HUGHES. No, sir.

Senator GERRY. Why was it off Cape Cod that you had this measured course for the trial of submarines? Apparently you never gave any notice that submarines were going to use the course.

Admiral HUGHES. It is a well-known course. It is laid down in the buoy books, that it is a trial course for submarines, and any man who looks the buoys up on the chart would know what it is. There was no occasion to send any notice out, although the ships that are in Provincetown at any time continuously see the submarines there and know that they are there.

Senator GERRY. I think the facts show that in that particular case there would have been a reason for notice. If, for example, the Coast Guard station had been notified, the Paulding would have known that there was a submarine there.

Admiral HUGHES. The Coast Guard station at Provincetown must have known perfectly well that submarines had been there for four or five days. Another submarine had finished her trials, and they had overlapped, and submarines had been working there for several days continuously.

Senator GERRY. Of course there was no rule in regard to the Coast Guard notifying their vessels that submarines were operating, and there was no Navy rule that notified the Coast Guard where submarines were operating?

Admiral HUGHES. No. Of course I acknowledge that had the Paulding known, she might have done something different, but she was right close to a well-marked trial course. There are other vessels that go around in that neighborhood besides the Coast Guard, but very few. One of the reasons that course was picked was because it is practically free of heavy traffic. There is one ship a day to and from Boston, and some fishermen, and then there are the Coast Guard vessels. It is deep water, close to shore, the right depth of water, and it has been used continuously for that purpose to my knowledge. I first worked upon it 17 years ago.

Senator GERRY. How often has that course been used in the last year or two.

It

Admiral HUGHES. I would have to look it up. When we have made any speed tests, we have used that course on this coast. was originally picked out by the contractors who built the ships, I think the Electric Boat Co., and afterwards it was used by the Lake Boat Co. for their tests, when we bought their ships. It is practically the only one that we have used on this coast. I know of no other. There may be one, but it does not come to my mind.

Senator GERRY. Here is your measured course that you have always used for your operations. You had two submarines using this course in succession?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

and

Senator GERRY. And you have used this course continually for a great many years, and fairly frequently in the last few years, the theory of the Navy was that that was sufficient notice? Admiral HUGHES. Yes; with the bouys marking it. Senator GERRY. And the buoys being on the chart? Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. The question in my mind is whether with the gradually increasing number of destroyers and chasers in the Coast Guard that are continually operating on that coast-I understand there are something like 15 out of Boston alone-certain cooperation between the Navy and the Coast Guard on the operation of submarines would not be helpful, not only in preventing collisions, but in case of any accident to submarines.

Admiral HUGHES. Under some cases; yes. But there is an enormous amount of deep water and there is no need of any ship going close to the buoys. The captain of one of those submarines has a certain latitude of his own. If he desires to run a submarine submerged across that course he is free to do it without notice if he wants to in one of his submerging trips.

Senator GERRY. In other words, the Navy's whole policy is to leave the question of submerging practically to the captain and let him take his chances with his crew?

Admiral HUGHES. I would say yes to that except to the phrase "let him take his chances." I would leave it to him. We do not consider there is any taking of any chances. We have gotten it to such a state that submerging is a routine matter.

Senator GERRY. The fact remains that you have had this accident there.

Admiral HUGHES. But it had nothing to do with submerging.

Senator GERRY. And your court of inquiry would seem to show that there was a question upon the part of the department of whether the officer in charge used good judgment.

Admiral HUGHES. Not in submerging, I think.

Senator GERRY. That is techincal, in coming up or when he came up, and in the proper use of his periscope?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. As to the danger of a submarine being hit by shipping, the question it seems to me is how those risks can be eliminated as much as possible, without impairing the use of the submarine, or hampering the necessary maneuvers that she has to carry out with the fleet. In other words, if the Coast Guard in this case had been notified and told to warn Coast Guard vessels that submarines intended to use that course for tests on certain days, it would have been notice to all of them, and it would have been a protection.

Admiral HUGHES. It would under the circumstances you have named, yes; undoubtedly.

Senator GERRY. There is one question about that. Another question is whether it is possible to have submarines submerge in other designated localities when they want to carry on submerging tests, when they are not operating with the fleet. When they are

operating with the fleet I can see there might be a difference. I am trying to get at whether that is a possible thing to do.

Admiral HUGHES. I think it is impossible. We consider those submarines always operating with the fleet.

Senator GERRY. Of course that is theoretical.

Admiral HUGHES. The commander of the fleet is practically in instantaneous touch with those submarines at all times. Merely operating with the fleet does not mean that they are in sight of one another. We feel that they are operating with the fleet, and they are at liberty to do this work at any time, and move from one place to another.

Senator GERRY. Yes; but that is more or less theoretical. When you operate with your fleet in carrying out fleet maneuvers, that is one thing. I can understand that when you are really carrying out one of the schemes you have worked out on the war board; but where a submarine has been attached to a shore station and is simply operating along the coast to carry out certain duties along that coast and conduct certain tests, and is operating as a unit, is not that a different situation? Had not this submarine the S-4 been up to Portsmouth? Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. And she was coming back?

Admiral HUGHES. To make her tests.

Senator GERRY. To make her tests.

Admiral HUGHES. Yes. She was in one of these well-defined areas. Senator GERRY. Very well, but that was not a fleet maneuver. Admiral HUGHES. No, sir.

Senator GERRY. That is not a fleet maneuver, and you were not following any war-board game. You sent her up to have something done to her at the Portsmouth Navy Yard.

Admiral HUGHES. She went up for an overhaul, and after that she went onto the trial course to check up her submerged speed.

Senator GERRY. And when she went onto the trial course there was no notice sent out to the Coast Guard station?

Admiral HUGHES. No; nor to anyone else.

Senator GERRY. And she was allowed to submerge and a collision occurred, and the submarine was lost. The point I am trying to get at is whether that is necessary; whether when a submarine, for example, goes through her tests, there should not be notice given; when she is doing ordinary submerging along the coast to test her engines and keep her in training, whether certain areas should not be picked and the whole thing not left to the commanding officer of the submarine? When she is on fleet maneuvers, that is another question. You may have to take those risks when she is with the entire fleet, or with a flotilla, but the question is whether you can eliminate a certain amount of them.

Admiral HUGHES. I think it would be inadvisable to try to do it. Senator GERRY. Why?

Admiral HUGHES. It would hamper the progress of the submarine. Senator GERRY. In other words, is it not really the naval theory that your submarine should be treated as if it was in wartime, and that by operating along the coast and leaving the submerging to the discretion of the commander in charge, you operate to as near war conditions as you can?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. And you train your crew along that line so as to render greater efficiency?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes, sir.

Senator GERRY. And you are willing in order to accomplish this training to take the additional risk?

Admiral HUGHES. I say yes; but I do not realize that there is any additional risk.

Senator GERRY. You do not think there is an additional risk?
Admiral HUGHES. No, sir.

Senator GERRY. In other words, you do not think that there is any more risk in allowing the submarine to operate like that than there is in doing a certain amount of submerging in an area that is protected?

Admiral HUGHES. That is what I think.

Senator GERRY. Why? Do you not think they would pay attention to the notice?

Admiral HUGHES. I think there is no requirement for anybody to observe the notice. They might or might not, and not having received it, it might give the people a sense of false security, and in addition it hampers the mobility of the ship. The trial course at Cape Cod is a fixed area and it has been buoyed, and it is generally known to shipping that that is a course which may be used at any time, and yet this accident happened.

Senator GERRY. Yes; but of course the answer that the Coast Guard board of inquiry gave to that was that it had only been used I think 49 times in 23 years.

Admiral HUGHES. I have no criticism to make of them at all.

Senator GERRY. And, therefore, that there was not any special reason to pay particular attention to those buoys.

Admiral HUGHES. There was no special reason to go near them either.

Senator GERRY. But if the Coast Guard station had had notice that the submarine was operating off there, and had been told to notify the Coast Guard vessels in that vicinity and other vessels

Admiral HUGHES. The Coast Guard at Cape Cod must have known. I don't know whether they did or not. They could have known that those ships were operating.

Senator GERRY. I think undoubtedly, from the testimony, that they did know. As I recall the testimony, the Coast Guard watch saw the submarine operating from the shore, and undoubtedly he must have reported to his station at Cape Cod. There was no policy for the Coast Guard station there, when they had that information, to notify the Coast Guard vessels that there was a submarine operating there. It seems to me that with the number of Coast Guard vessels, destroyers, that they have taken over from the Navy, that are operating in that area, and that are operating at the rate of speed the Paulding was, 18 knots, you are undoubtedly increasing the hazard to shipping. That is an additional reason why this vessel should have had notice from the department of the use of the trial course.

Admiral HUGHES. May not the fact of a destroyer going right across their course at such a high speed have an element of danger?

Senator GERRY. I am quite willing to grant that. I am not going into that yet, although as I understand it, Mr. Chairman, the committee intends to go into that phase of it also?

Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Admiral HUGHES. One of the dangers dependent on giving notice is that all may not get it, and if they have not received it they may seem perfectly free. We have the greatest latitude down there, and a mariner should feel-perhaps "should" is a little strong, but has reason to feel that submarines may be operating there.

Senator GERRY. What I had in mind was to see if it is not possible in the future to minimize as much as possible the danger of these collisions, if anything could be done by notice.

Admiral HUGHES. Yes; I understand perfectly.

Senator GERRY, I wanted to get the viewpoint of the Navy as to why that had not been done, and why in their opinion it is not a practical proposition, and I want to satisfy my own mind on that point.

Admiral HUGHES. Whenever practical the Navy has no objection in any way to giving notice to the Coast Guard at the Boston station. or some other place when we intend to use that trial course; but there may be a possibility of its being used when they do not give notice, or for some reason when we could not give notice. Then again, there is the prospect of all ships not getting the notice. The mere fact that we should have to give notice, and some do not get it,. would tend to relieve them of responsibility of keeping a proper lookout. Senator GERRY. Would there be anything in the raising of a flag there such as the submarine flag that used to be used?

Admiral HUGHES. I doubt the efficiency of it. Whether it would be seen would depend upon the wind, and the size of the flag. Of course we can undoubtedly get permission to use the staff, or erect one of our own for that purpose. Then another thing, ships might stand in too close and seeing some flag flying there might stand in to see what it was and that would bring on danger which we try to avoid.

Senator GERRY. Yes; I can understand that, or you may have thick weather.

Admiral HUGHES. Yes; it might be invisible for that reason.

Senator GERRY. Would it be possible to have a buoy for that purpose?

Admiral HUGHES. No. The buoys are already there. It is a question that might well be studied, to see whether we can.

Senator GERRY. What is the objection to a tender accompanying the submarine? You have not enough tenders?

Admiral HUGHES. We have not enough tenders, but the man operating the submarine does not want a tender around. It constitutes another danger.

Senator GERRY. He might come up underneath the tender?

Admiral HUGHES. Yes. They don't want him around. You never can indicate from the tender where the submarine is, and if you try to follow closely, you would become an additional danger to the submarine.

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