Admiral BILLARD. Senator, realizing that you are confining it to the Paulding for the moment, might I say

Senator GERRY. What I want to say, Admiral, is that it is very confusing, when you are trying to follow one line of thought, to have you get off of the destroyer. Then I do not know where I am.

Admiral BILLARD. Just assume, for the moment, that the Paulding was at fault in not having even more lookouts? What does that mean? It would mean that every surface ship proceeding in clear weather, with no peril about, with a sufficient and adequate bridge force, would be constrained likewise to have an additional, special lookout. You can see, I am sure, the effect that would have upon the navigation of all ships.

Senator GERRY. Do they not do that on all big ocean steamers? My recollection is that there is not a steamer that goes abroad that does not carry a lookout in the crow's nest. That is my recollection from personal observation; and whether it is clear or is not.

Admiral BILLARD. I could not say about that.

Senator GERRY. That is my recollection from personal observation. Captain WHEELER. That is on big passenger steamers.

Senator GERRY. On all the large passenger steamers, that is done. Captain WHEELER. Carrying thousands of passengers.

Senator GERRY. The question is on the safety proviso

Senator ODDIE. One human life is just as important as anything that could be considered.

Admiral BILLARD. I have been going to sea off and on for over 30 years, and I have never seen, aboard a vessel of the size and description of the Paulding, a special lookout put up in the bow under conditions such as are described here.

Senator GERRY. Here is the point I have in mind. This vessel is very fast, going 18 knots just prior to this collision.

Admiral BILLARD. Yes.

Senator GERRY. An ordinary steamer going 10 or 12 knots, while she might not be able to stop as fast as a high-powered destroyer, provided you had all your boilers working on the destroyer, could not approach a boat at anything like the speed that the destroyer would; and the question that comes in my mind is that when operating a destroyer, if it is not necessary to take more than usual precautions in regard to lookouts, because of the speed, and on account of the way that the destroyer is built, she being so long and narrow, that she is not the easiest vessel to turn; is there not an added duty for the maintenance of safety, to keep additional lookouts, that you would not use on a smaller, slower vessel? Now, I do not know what the Navy custom is when they operate their destroyers.

Admiral BILLARD. Senator, I think I will answer the question by saying this, that you undoubtedly would take the special precaution that the conditions and circumstances called for; for example, if the Paulding had been coming in there in thick, hazy weather or at night, and so on. But the actual facts are that she was coming in in a clear bright day.

Senator GERRY. But you are just arguing, Admiral, that the chop made it impossible for the commanding officer of the destroyer to see a periscope in time. Now, if he could not see the periscope of the submarine under the weather conditions that you had, he prob

ably would not have seen a log or a bit of wreckage, and the Paulding might have had a collision with that.

Admiral BILLARD. If the special conditions such as are in your mind called for a particular lookout, and particular precautions on this clear, beautiful day, then it follows that a vessel must keep these special precautions going always, and forever going, whether there is a submarine there or not.

Senator GERRY. I am inclined to think that that may be the case. But now you say it was a clear, beautiful day.

Admiral BILLARD. Yes.

Senator GERRY. Then, if it was a clear, beautiful day, you ought to have seen those periscopes.

Admiral BILLARD. Not at all, Senator.

Senator GERRY. You said that you thought the chop of the sea, and a certain amount of spray on the water, made it difficult to see. It does not make any difference what the conditions were, the fact is that there was a collision; that the destroyer did not see the submarine in time. The thing we are interested in is, why did she not? Was there negligence, and how can that be prevented in the future? That is the thing in a nutshell. It is not a question of opinion, but of what the facts are.

Admiral BILLARD. May I try to briefly repeat what I wanted to bring out? It is this. It was clear, beautiful day. There was an adequate bridge force watching out for everything, and conditions were such with the lookout, that had the same situation existed, if there had been two or three more of them in the bow they would have been able to see everything except a periscope of a submarine, on account of the choppy condition of the water; hence a surface vessel, under conditions that are adequately met by the bridge force that this vessel had, if that surface vessel is going to be held responsible for hitting a submerged submarine, there is a clear responsibility on somebody to let the destroyer or the surface vessel know, in an unmistakable way, that the periscope is in the water.

Senator GERRY. That is another point; but the point I have in mind is this. I have just heard your testimony. You have talked about the lookout tower on shore, saying that that was higher than the normal bridge on the ordinary destroyer. Probably there was not much difference in the height; but let that be as it may, that was an additional advantage in the way of the lookout.

What is in my mind is, would it not have been a great aid, and probably have prevented the accident, if there had been a lookout in the crow's nest of the destroyer?

Admiral BILLARD. In my judgment, under the circumstances, it is highly improbable that anybody, or any number of lookouts, would have detected the periscope. That is the impression I have. Senator GERRY. Of course, that is a question of opinion.

Admiral BILLARD. Oh, yes. I wonder if it would help the committee to have the testimony of a witness who is here. I just found here I never met the gentleman before-Captain Clark, who is a master mariner; I just met him in this room, never saw him before in my life and did not know of his existence. I wish the committee would hear him. I do not know what he is prepared to say.

Senator ODDIE. We want to follow a definite line of procedure, Admiral, so as to get through as well and quickly as possible. Then we may be glad to hear him, in the proper time.

I want to go into the question a little further with you about the lookout. What were the actual instructions given to the men on the bridge who you say were acting as lookouts?

Admiral BILLARD. It is impossible for me to know what was actually said to the men that day, but I do know this, from my knowledge of service life, that those men were thoroughly indoctrinated with the fact that their primary function was to watch out for vessels and obstructions or dangers; in other words, to act as efficient lookouts. They were indoctrinated with that. One of them-and I would like the committee to note it-the chief quartermaster on lookout, had been 10 years in the Navy, serving mostly on Navy destroyers. If he would not know how to keep lookout, I do not know who would.

Senator ODDIE. What are the Coast Guard regulations regarding lookouts?

Admiral BILLARD. The Coast Guard regulations provide that at night or in thick weather a special lookout shall be stationed, and that is religiously adhered to.

Senator ŎDDIE. But not on a clear day?

Admiral BILLARD. Not under such circumstances as these.

Senator ODDIE. Would you consider the fact that that measured mile course was marked clearly by these buoys, would be notice of the likelihood of submarines being in that vicinity?

Admiral BILLARD. No; I should say not. The outer course, not the one used by the S-4, is the measured mile. It would convey, I think, to the average individual, the thought of surface craft using it for sea trials.

Senator ODDIE. Might it not be used by submarines?
Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly it might.

Senator ODDIE. And would it not be in the line of caution for a special lookout to be placed, in going over that course?

Admiral BILLARD. I should think not, sir. As a matter of fact, as I pointed out, the submarine was not operating in the place we are talking about, at all.

Senator ODDIE. But she was operating in another measured mile course?

Admiral BILLARD. Not so much

Senator ODDIE. Used by the Navy, and known to be a place used by submarines?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not know to what extent known. Of course it is not for me to say. I confine myself to saying that the United States chart makes no mention of it, and that the United States Coast Pilot instructions make no mention of it.

Senator ODDIE. The question of obstructions or dangers likely to be encountered has been mentioned by the previous witness. Would not a careful navigator consider that the submarine, in the line of its duty, in submerged practice, might be operating in that neighborhood, and might be considered one of these dangers likely to be encountered?

Admiral BILLARD. The careful navigator to whom you have referred reads on the United States hydrographic chart a statement which, inferentially at least, suggests that if a submarine be operating, he will see a tender with a flag flying. That is the mental reaction of the average careful navigator, I should say.

Senator ODDIE. Is it not known to navigators that that is an obsolete practice, which was in use when submarines were very much smaller than they are to-day, and with a much shorter radius of action?

Admiral BILLARD. My knowledge of the fact that it was obsolete was first arrived at by the reading of it in the naval court of inquiry. Let me ask, is there any other officer here who was cognizant of the fact that it was no longer being done?

Captain GAMBLE. I never heard of it until in this case.
Captain WHEELER. I did not know it.

Admiral BILLARD. These officers who are here have been 25 or 30 years at sea. Captain Wheeler was three years at Provincetown, I believe.

Captain WHEELER. I spent three years on that station, from 1921 to 1923, in Provincetown, and previous to this, I had no knowledge that I might encounter a submarine there.

Senator ODDIE. I asked a question a little while ago regarding additional duties for the lookout on the Paulding, did you answer that fully?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not know. Senator, but I will try to answer it now, if I may repeat. The duties of those people on the bridge of the Paulding were primarily and fundamentally as lookouts, and they had no other duties that would detract in any applicable way from that primary_function.

Senator ODDIE. Have you given the positions of the various officers on the bridge or on the ship at that time? For instance, there was the commanding officer, the officer of the deck, the junior officer and the quartermaster?

Admiral BILLARD. The captain of the vessel was on the bridge and had stepped a few feet into the pilot house to look at the chart just before the accident occurred. The commissioned officer of the deck

Captain GAMBLE. He was on the left side of the bridge.

Admiral BILLARD. The commissioned officer was on the left side of the bridge. The junior officer was where?

He

Captain GAMBLE. He was right behind the wheelsman; he was on the left side of the bridge and later in the right side I am sure. was behind the binnacle, looking ahead at the moment of collision. Senator ODDIE. Had any special instructions or warning been given to any of the officers regarding the possibility of the presence of submarines?

Admiral BILLARD. Not to my knowledge, sir, at all. I may suggest that this Coast Guard station, right close to where the accident happened, had no official notification, and knew of the submarine only by observation.

Senator ODDIE. Is there any testimony in the record showing that these Coast Guard officers on shore had notice or knew of any recent submarine tests being made in that vicinity?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not recall it in the record. Obviously, these men at that station would know what was going on, but had never been officially advised of that fact.

Senator ODDIE. Admiral, do you think that a careful navigating officer would have suspected the possibility of submarines operating in that vicinity?

Admiral BILLARD. The careful navigating officer, Senator, does not know where he will find submarines operating. He will see them, for example, operating out of New London. To the best of my understanding, he is liable to see them anywhere in the seven seas, practically.

Senator ODDIE. He would be more liable to see them in the vicinity of a measured trial course used by the Navy and marked by the Navy, would he not?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not know whether he would or not, in view of the facts. The testimony shows that the submarines operated about Provincetown once in four and a half months, on the average. I came from New London yesterday, and saw some myself. I saw on that one day two submarines moving in and out of New London. So that I would not say that he would expect a submarine in Provincetown when one operates there every four and a half months, on the average, any more than he would at New London, where there is no measured mile and no warning, but where submarines are operating almost every day.

Senator ODDIE. It is a known fact that there are a large number of submarines in the Navy?

Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly.

Senator ODDIE. And that they must keep in constant practice? Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly, Senator.

Senator ODDIE. And to do that, they must submerge very frequently?

Admiral BILLARD. Undoubtedly. And I gather-but it is not for me to say that the whole doctrine of the Navy submarine service is that in view of this necessity, the submarine must look after herself with respect to surface craft.

Senator ODDIE. What can you tell us about any change in the course of the Paulding before the accident?

Admiral BILLARD. To the best of my recollection, the testimony shows that the Paulding was proceeding along, following exactly the precepts of the Coast Pilot, they were about to change their course to the left, that the order was given, "Five degrees left rudder," and that before the ship's head had swung at all, the object rose up under their bow, and they swung right. I think I am correct in saying that the testimony clearly shows that the bow of the Paulding did not actually swing clearly to the left.

Incidentally, in that connection, the fact would seem to be established that the submarine had the Paulding on its starboard bow. Under the international rule of the sea, of course, that places the responsibility as between the ships on the submarine.

Senator ODDIE. Was the Paulding being navigated on the Pilot Chart at the time of the collision or on the regular navigation chart? Admiral BILLARD. It was being navigated by this chart, the Coast and Geodetic Survey Chart.

Senator ODDIE. Was the Pilot Chart considered?

Admiral BILLARD. I do not believe I know what you mean by the "Pilot Chart."

Captain WHEELER. Concerning the weather, etc.

Admiral BILLARD. You mean the Pilot Chart carrying the weather, and so on?

Senator ODDIE. Yes.