and I don't think I kept the telescope on that submarine not over a couple of seconds, two or three seconds. Dropped the telescope and I looked with the naked eye to see where the destroyer was and I said right there, "My God, Frank, there's going to be a collision." Then the destroyer had borne down on the submarine and the submarine started to rise then right under the Paulding's bow, and when they collided there was about a third of the conning tower, I should judge, out of the water and as near as I could figure the Paulding struck somewhere about where the gun is located.

I immediately ran downstairs and on the way down I ordered a two-flag hoist; that is to indicate to our boat to return to the station immediately as soon as they could get there, that is the understanding. The two-flag hoist on our flagstaff recalls the boat to the station immediately and also to let the commander of the Paulding know by the unusual appearance on our flagstaff that they had already been seen.

Incidentally, he manned his boat and went out and did all the work in connection with finding the location and getting the grapnel on the submarine, and he stayed out all night and did remarkably good work, in the freezing weather. It was so rough that none of the Navy boats could operate that night.

Senator ODDIE. He operated with one of the Coast Guard lifeboats?

Commander HOOVER. He operated with one of the Coast Guard surfboats. Later they gave one of those boats to the Bushnell to use. Our boats could not live in the sea.

Senator ODDIE. It shows that he is a particularly brave and capable man.

Commander HOOVER. Yes. That is his regular duty, saving life. Liuetenant Commander DUNBAR. And he was very keen, and a typical seaman.

of

Senator ODDIE. So that his testimony is

Commander HOOVER. Most reliable.

Senator ODDIE. Most reliable.

Senator GERRY. Those old Coast Guard men are a very fine class men, and they are excellent seamen.

Senator ODDIE. They are a noble lot. They have to go out to sea in storms when others come in.

Commander HOOVER. This was the testimony of the boatswain, the commanding officer at the station.

Senator ODDIE. Let me ask you a practical question. That testimony showed that with the naked eye he could see a part of the hull of the submarine before the accident?

Commander HOOVER. We can bring that out a little later.

Senator ODDIE. How long before the collision did any of the hull show? In other words, does it not take quite a while is it not a comparatively slow operation for a submarine to come to the surface that much, and would not part of the hull have been visible for some time before the collision?

Commander HoOVER. No; his periscope should come out first, and then his conning tower.

Senator ODDIE. But would not a part of the conning tower have been visible for some little time before the collision?

Commander HOOVER. You can not tell about that. They can come up pretty quick when they want to.

Senator ODDIE. Will you go right ahead with that testimony now?

104672-288

Commander HOOVER. The other witness from whose testimony I wanted to read to you is Frank E. Simonds, surfman, Wood End Coast Guard Station. [Reading:]

2. Q. Were you on watch on the afternoon of December 17, 1927?-A. Yes, sir. 3. Q. How long have you been attached to the Wood End Station?-A. Ńine months and two days.

4. Q. Will you testify as to what you saw on the afternoon of December 17?— A. I had the watch, 12 to 4 in the afternoon, and I went in the tower at 12 o'clock, and at about 12.15 I saw a submarine, she was cruising beyond the buoy about a mile away; cruising in a northwest and southeast direction. I saw her a little later in the afternoon cruising down between the buoys. I only saw her for a short time, I could not see her all the time. And the sea was so rough I could only see a little of the periscope.

That indicates right there that he could see the periscope a mile away, where he was on the beach.

Senator ODDIE. How far away would that be?

Lieutenant Commander DUNBAR. About 2,000 yards.
Senator ODDIE. How long before the accident was that?

Commander HOOVER. There is considerable more to it. He saw

her all the afternoon. [Continuing reading:]

Mr. Gracie came in the tower before 3.30 and asked me what was going on. I told him I had seen a submarine off and on. A little before 3.30 the destroyer Paulding was coming by Race Point, bound in. Then Mr. Gracie came into the tower and asked me about it and I told him. Mr. Gracie took the glass and was looking at the Paulding. After looking at the Paulding he took the glass and looked for the submarine. Then a little after 3.30 I saw the submarine and the

Paulding going on. He said, "There is going to be a collision." He dropped the glass just about then and went downstairs to get the boat underway. I picked up the glass saw the submarine just ahead of the Paulding on the starboard. It looked as though it went over the top of the submarine. I saw about half of the conning tower of the sub. The sub settled right away and I did not see it on the surface at all.

(Continuing reading:)

Did

24. Q. I ask you to come to the chart and I show you the buoy "AA.” you see the submarine to the southwest of this buoy?-A. Yes; in the first part of the afternoon I saw her beyond it. She was running northwest and southeast direction.

25. Q. She was heading back then?-A. She was headed in a southeast direction.

26. Q. Was she at periscope depth then?-A. She might have had her periscope out of the water 5 feet at the time. At about 12.30 she was out beyond the buoy.

27. Q. You saw her at 12.30 at periscope depth? A. Yes, sir.

71. Q. You have testified that you saw the submarine during the afternoon up a bout a mile to the northward of that "AA" buoy?—A. Yes, sir. Somewhere about a mile.

72. Q. How far would that be from your station?-A. Somewhere around a mile and a half.

73. Q. Was she submerged when you saw her? A. Yes, sir; but not away down.

74. Q. Was the conning tower showing?-A. I can't say.

75. Q. What did you see?-A. I saw the periscopes.

That is all of that.

(At this point informal proceedings occurred, not reported.) Senator ODDIE. How many submarines are there in the Navy that are in commission?

Commander HOOVER. Seventy-eight.

Senator ODDIE. How frequently do they maneuver?
Commander HOOVER. They maneuver almost every day.
Senator ODDIE. All the 78?

Commander HOOVER. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. How much diving do they do?

Commander HOOVER. Each one attempts to dive at least once a day. Frequently he dives half a dozen times a day in the course of his work.

Senator ODDIE. So that in the last year, how many dives have been made by all of these submarines in the service, if you can figure that out?

Commander HOOVER. That is a pretty large order. I will try to get something and put it in the record.

Senator ODDIE. As to the number of trips made by submarines in the last year, and dives made by them in the last year, were many of those dives made in areas frequented by shipping?

Commander HOOVER. I should say yes. It is impossible to get away from shipping.

Senator ODDIE. How much area do these maneuvers cover?

Commander HOOVER. An ordinary submarine area, if such an area is laid out, is usually 6 miles square.

Senator ODDIE. From how many stations do they maneuver? Commander HOOVER. They are maneuvering daily from New London out in Long Island Sound, opposite the port, and sometimes from Portsmouth Navy Yard, from Coco Solo in the Canal Zone, from Balboa, Canal Zone, from San Diego, Calif., from San Pedro, Calif., from Pearl Harbor, the Hawaiian Islands, and from Manila, P. I., and other places in the Philippines.

Senator ODDIE. And in the northwest, in Puget Sound?
Commander HOOVER. Not so much.

Senator ODDIE. Not up there?

Commander HOOVER. No.

Senator ODDIE. Is it too cold up there?

Commander HOOVER. They do not happen to be stationed there. Senator GERRY. Do they have particular areas set aside?

Commander HOOVER. There are at New London some areas laid off by the station that have no official significance so far as shipping goes, for the school submarines to work in, in order that when they are out instructing the students, they will not interfere with each other.

Senator GERRY. But, apart from that, they dive wherever they happen to be?

Commander HOOVER. If only one school submarine was out that day, he would be at liberty to dive anywhere in the vicinity. These areas are for the submarines' mutual convenience only.

This same system is followed at Colon, where we have submarines based ashore, and the water outside the breakwater is subdivided by the submarine people into sectors so that the boats will keep clear of each other in individual operations.

Senator GERRY. Is shipping notified of these sectors?

Commander HOOVER. No; and the sectors cover the entire entrance to Colon. They may or may not be used every day; some may be used and some not, but shipping does not know.

Senator GERRY. Is there any reason why shipping would not know? Commander HOOVER. It would result, I believe, in stampeding the shipping, and also hindering, to a great extent, the work of the submarines.

We would either have to give up using that locality, or

else wait until there was no ship in sight, which is seldom the case, shipping is so frequent there; that is, there are ships coming in at all hours of the day and night.

Senator ODDIE. Do the foreign navies operate their submarines on the same principle that we do, namely, to let them submerge at their own discretion?

Commander HOOVER. I do not know, but I believe so. It is not the practice to set aside parts of the ocean for strictly naval use, and I do not believe it is likely. This rather prevents putting down fixed areas as such on the chart.

Senator GERRY. It would simply be a question of extra warning to vessels, where these areas were?

Commander HoOVER. Yes; provided these areas were in places that shipping did not frequent. In fact, it is pretty nearly impossible to find areas that ships do not pass through at some time or another.

(Thereupon, at 12.55 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman.)

INVESTIGATION OF SINKING OF THE SUBMARINE "S-4"

WEDNESDAY, MAY 16, 1928

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON NAVAL AFFAIRS,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to the call of the chairman, at 10 o'clock a. m., in the room of the committee in the Capitol, Senator Tasker L. Oddie presiding.

Present: Senators Oddie (chairman) and Gerry.

Present also: Commander J. H. Hoover, United States Navy; Rear Admiral Frederick C. Billard, Commandant United States Coast Guard, accompanied by Captain Gamble, Captain Adams, Captain Wheeler, and Commander Root, United States Coast Guard; Mr. Cunningham; and Mr. Savoy.

Senator ŎDDIE. The committee will come to order. Senator Steiwer has notified the committee that he is attending another official hearing, and will not be able to be present, but that he will study the record of the hearing.

In this investigation we have so far had testimony from several officials of the Navy, and I have placed in the record the statement of Secretary Mellon, dated May 7, 1928, regarding the disaster to the S-4.

I asked the Secretary of the Treasury to delegate some one from the Coast Guard to appear before this committee, and he has done so this morning. Admiral Billard, are you ready to make a statement, or do you prefer to have some one else representing the Coast Guard speak first?

STATEMENT OF REAR ADMIRAL FREDERICK C. BILLARD, COMMANDANT OF THE UNITED STATES COAST GUARD

Admiral BILLARD. I would prefer to represent the Coast Guard and speak first, Mr. Chairman.

Senator ODDIE. Admiral Billard, you know of the statement that has been placed in the record, issued by Secretary of the Treasury Mellon regarding the collision between the Coast Guard ship Paulding and the submarine S-4?

Admiral BILLARD. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Have you any additional statement you would like to put in the record before you testify?

Admiral BILLARD. I should like to make a general statement, if I may.

Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Admiral BILLARD. After which I am at the disposal of the committee, entirely.

Senator ODDIE. Yes.